It Wasn’t Wasted…It Was Data

Laura: Um,

Renae: How was your trip?

Laura: it was informative. Um, we.

Renae: Okay, that’s not usually what people say when

Laura: I

Renae: you

Laura: know.

Renae: ask them about a vacation and time

Laura: Um, yeah. Well, it was going to be. I don’t know how much I told you about it, but it was going to be like this trial for car camping. And we were doing car camping and like, we went to, we just like, did it overnight in Charlotte, just kind of like on the way there. And then we’re going to be in Savannah for two days and then like various places in Florida. And it was, I mean, like, I think part of it was just that we didn’t know what we didn’t know. And we brought too much stuff. And then like, you know, I think that it would be good if a, we just kind of like streamlined and then B um, didn’t like if the campsite was more of the destination instead of like the way I planned it, it was like the campsite was like the hotel room. And then we were going to like, that was like our base of operation and we could like go to various beaches from there. And it was just like, you know, it was hot because it’s Florida. Of course, I don’t know what I was thinking. And so when it was cool enough to sleep well, you could, it was great. Um, like sleeping in the car was great. Like way better than sleeping in a tent on the ground. Um, but there was a couple nights when it was just so humid that, you know, or not human, but hot. Um, that it was just miserable. And if I’m miserable. Hi. I know that Dan is just like dying because he runs like, you know, ten degrees hotter than I do. Um, and so like, that was like the first half of the trip was just kind of like us figuring out like, you know, like, what’s the most efficient way to get everything out of the car? And then we have this old tent. So setting it up took ten years. And then at one point, like it was raining and the tent was leaking. And that’s like our living room and we’re, we’re sitting there and there’s like water dripping on us. And also, um, we had to get our brakes replaced. Um, when we got to Savannah and when we went, so we were at a campsite in Savannah. The campsite was beautiful, but just so human and so buggy. It was the swamp. So it was gorgeous like to look at, but just like to be there was not really that pleasurable. And but we did see three great horned owls and also an armadillo. So that was really funny. But, um, we, so we, we had our stuff set up at the campsite and then we left, you know, most of our stuff in the tent. And then we went to get our brakes fixed and we ubered to Savannah and just went around. And that was my birthday. That was fun. And then, um, when we got back to the campsite, raccoons had unzipped the tent and gotten in. And then we had like a soft sided cooler, like most of our food was inaccessible, but there was like a soft sided cooler that had stuff stacked on top of it. So they couldn’t get all the way into it, but they were able to unzip part of it enough to reach their dirty little hands and get our bread and a bunch of chips so that, like, we came back to that. And then the next day when we were breaking everything down, one of the tent stakes was still in the ground and I tripped on it. And, um, yeah, I ripped open the between my second and third toe. Yeah. It was there was a lot of drama for what turned out to be not a huge injury, but with, you know, like I, you know, like sometimes you stub your toe or something and it hurts really bad, but it’s not really a bad injury. So you don’t really kind of know. But I was just like, I don’t know. I was like, are you okay? And I was like, I don’t know. But then I was afraid to look at my foot because it hurt and I’m very queasy about injury. And I was like, could you just look at it and tell me what you think? And he is the kind of person that’s always like, nobody needs to go to the doctor. Everything’s fine. And he looked at it and he was like, that looks serious. Like we need to go to the E.R.. And so then I immediately got sick. Um, and I was like, I gotta sit down. And I was like, sitting down. And then I passed out. And which is not unusual because that’s totally happened in the past. And I have low blood pressure. And like I tell you, I’m like, you know, historically queasy. But this time when I passed out, for some reason, it was like I was like, in this weird black place and I didn’t know where I was. And I was just like, super disoriented. And I just kept like, during the blackout, I was just like, I gotta get, I gotta get out of here. Gotta get out of here. And then when I woke up, I was just like, where am I? What’s happening? And Dan was like, you’re, we’re in Georgia. You’re okay. Like you hurt your foot. And then I like, threw up and then I passed out again. And my Kiki, he has to still like break down all this shit and get it into the car. Um, and because he can see, like, you know, like she’s not going to die from this injury, like not even bleeding that much. It was just like a deep cut. So I’m just like, you know, trying to hold it together in the passenger seat while he like, just like dumps everything. And it had been raining, so everything’s wet. And then we go to we end up going to an urgent care. And they were so nice and they were able to fix it. And, you know, like they were able to because every, you know, you’re on a campsite every you’re dirty. And so they were able to clean everything up. So I have like one clean foot. Everything else is like filthy. And, um, they couldn’t put any stitches in it just because of its location. So they just put those steri strips. So it turned out to be fine, but then I couldn’t get my foot wet for three days. And so now we’re finally at a destination that we want to be at like this beach. And I can’t, you know, walk along the water’s edge. So it was just like stuff like that. Um, and so then we finally got down to, we were supposed to stay on this boat for a couple days, just like a docked boat. And I thought that was going to be something different than it was. Like, this whole thing is like me, not everything, not meeting my expectations. And then we got to the boat and it was just like kind of weird and smelly, and it wasn’t in a pretty place. And I was just like, I can’t with this. Like, I want to go back home. Like, I don’t even want to be here. And then I was like, well, what if we just got a place on Marco Island because we were close to that anyway, so that’s what we did. So the trip turned around. But in the meantime, then my daughter got this internship, which is again, amazing. Like it’s great, but she now she has to drive out to Wyoming by herself and which is twenty hours away from, you know, us in Ohio and we’re in Florida. We can no one can go with her because like, if we would have been here, we probably would have one of us would have driven out with her and then flown back, you know? Um, but it’s not a big deal. She can do it, but it’s just like, you know, making your mind spin and, you know, you have your kid off on their own, like, you know, good luck, like get all your shit together and try out to Wyoming, and then we’re not even going to see you again until, you know, late August. So that was especially bothering Dan and me too. But so all that to say, then we got to like Amelia Island, which was supposed to be like the last. We’re supposed to spend two days in Amelia Island and we got there and we’re just both like, let’s just go home. And so we, um, we spent, we did spend Friday night there because we had to drive from South Florida to that’s like northern Florida. So that tastes like a whole day, about eight hours. And then we were there and, um, we’re just like, let’s just go home on Saturday. And so that’s what we did. Like we drove thirteen hours. It was our anniversary. Um, but I think the good thing about it was that it was really like a big reset, which that’s what a vacation is supposed to be. It wasn’t my favorite trip I’ve ever been on? The Marco Island part was nice, but I think a really informative thing about it was that it’s nice to feel like I have a life that I don’t need to escape from. Do you know what I mean? You know, like we wanted to go back home and even after seven days, you know, and so, um, it was, it was like, okay, great. Like, this is we don’t need to take two week vacations. We don’t need to travel. Like, because I think that was part of it. Like, like, let’s be traveling around. And what if we like sold our house and bought a van and just like lived on the road and like, I think this really told us that that’s not what we want to do and that this is like, just give us a new sense of gratitude for our home. And, you know, I think we were thinking about, well, I know we were thinking about like moving out of our house and relocating and now we’re just kind of like, I don’t know if that’s the thing now. So I think in a lot of ways it’s really good for us. But and I have a lot of great stories from it that I know I can use, like in my yoga class. And there’s like a lot of great lessons learned.

Renae: Yeah.

Laura: But as far as it being like an amazing vacation, it was not.

Renae: Yeah. That did not sound at all like what I think of when I think of vacation.

Laura: Right.

Renae: Like, oh, I mean, when I, when I was a kid, that’s how we vacationed is

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: we got in a car and we drove. And I remember we drove from Montana to California when I was younger. And, um, the car broke down and my parents had to buy a new car while we were on vacation, which

Laura: A

Renae: drastically,

Laura: whole new car.

Renae: drastically changed the vacation.

Laura: Oh my gosh. For the better or for the worse.

Renae: Well, I mean, then you’re out of money. Um,

Laura: Mhm. Yeah, yeah.

Renae: I mean, even for our honeymoon, we went to, um, we, I took a week off and we went to British Columbia for three days, which was beautiful and wonderful. And that was really, really nice. Um, it was a, it was beautiful. Exactly what it needed to be. And then we snuck back into town and didn’t tell anybody and stayed home for three days and watched movies and, um, you know, uh, ordered in and all kinds of stuff like that.

Laura: That sounds fun.

Renae: And it was, and it

Laura: well, I was going to say like, I think that is what my like, I was thinking to myself, I’m going to that’s what I’m going to do. Like, you know, more of just like take a Friday and just like do art all day, you know, and like just that’s going to feel like a vacation because I have all my stuff and oh my God, a working toilet having to get up in the night and go, oh, I made this. One of the things that, well, what Dan got me for my birthday was like a travel set of art supplies.

Renae: Oh,

Laura: And so

Renae: nice.

Laura: I started doing like art, art journaling while we were there.

Renae: That’s

Laura: And

Renae: wonderful.

Laura: it was really sweet. And so like, he, um, so I made this as my first art journal. Uh, because,

Renae: Oh my gosh.

Laura: because I, um, you, you know how you have to pee like eighteen times a night. And sometimes we were close to the bathroom and I just walked to the bathroom, but some in other campsites we weren’t. And so Dan’s like here use well, and then I was like, peed on the ground. So this is so much personal information about like, I peed on the ground, but then, you know, I it gets your feet wet. And I’m like, this is gross. Now I have to get back in bed with these gross p feet. And he was like, well, you know, here’s this coffee counts like P. It’s like such a thing. Like he would get up and come with me because I’m scared. And then like, I’m like peeing in this can and dumping

Renae: Oh my

Laura: the can

Renae: gosh.

Laura: out. I’m just

Renae: Oh

Laura: like, what?

Renae: my gosh.

Laura: What is my life? better to have your own bathroom to or a

Renae: Agreed.

Laura: bathroom when within walking distance of your bed that you don’t have to get dressed for.

Renae: Great. Well, I want to reflect for a second. I saw your art, and that was real art, Laura.

Laura: Thanks.

Renae: That was actually very, very, very cool. And.

Laura: Thank you.

Renae: And I think that would be such a great graphic to use for writing an article, you know, and, and, or storytelling about this, you know, as you’re recording

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: your, your thoughts about it. Um, and I think you, the, I love that you’re. Like the fact that you reflected that your expectations weren’t met, right? That it was it was a little you know, I didn’t know what I didn’t know, but also I had a picture in my mind of how it was going to go.

Laura: Right?

Renae: And it was very different because again, like at the beginning of this conversation, I’m like, how it wasn’t, how was your vacation? It was informative.

Laura: Right.

Renae: That is very different.

Laura: Well, here’s even. What’s even funnier about that is this whole time I’ve been positioning it as like, this is an experiment. We’re experimenting with car camping. We’re going to see what we like. We’re going to see, you know, and then like, like at one point we were even like, what if we love Florida? We want to move there. So I even going into it as an experiment, I thought the experiment was going to go well. Like that was my expectation that the experiment was going to be successful or how I was defining success at that time, as this is great and fun and let’s keep doing it forever. And it was an experiment and the results came in differently than I thought.

Renae: But it’s good data.

Laura: Right. It is, it is. It was really

Renae: It’s.

Laura: good. And then Dan was saying yesterday, he felt like it was. So it was a year ago that we all, all four of us, me, Dan and the kids were at Marco Island and his dad fell down and he had to leave our. Dan had to leave our vacation early to come home and care for his dad, who was then in the hospital. And then they had to find a place that would could care for him twenty four hours because he could no longer live on his own. So this kind of felt for him. He felt like it was like a chapter of like, okay, this is like a reset. Like that was a hard chapter and not that things are going to suddenly get easier, but like, I think it felt like a mental reset for him to be like, okay, this is reality and I don’t have to wait for things to get better or worse, you know? So, I mean, that was another thing that was good about it too.

Renae: So you’ve used the word reset a couple of times. So I’m wondering to, um, you know, as you’ve been wrestling with the, the, the business and work and all of that does, does this inform any of that? Did you have any room for that or was this all about, you know, just living life and, and that.

Laura: Well, yeah, like right before we left for this trip, I started spiraling on how much I didn’t like my group, like my school group And yeah, so I did use this as a reset. And I was just like, what if I’m just in like, um, what if I’m just an artist and a writer for six months and I just do copywriting stuff. And so I had more of a chance to like just sit with that. And I found that that does feel good. And it does feel that was one of the things I was looking forward to coming back home and doing, you know, just like doing art and, and, you know, starting back up my writing practice and, and working on how I can make my writing as fun as my art has become. Um, as I build skill in both things for no particular end. That’s what I keep, you know, and I mean like that is, I think to me, to the other element of it that is part of the work for me is that’s just like we’re always talking about like, it’s not the end goal that is fulfilling in your life. It’s the process of, of doing it. And so that’s where I’m trying to explore to see how I can get there with my writing. Um, and because, you know, as you, you know, it’s just become a source of burnout for me instead of a source of joy, even though I have always wanted to tell stories and I’ll always wanted to write. So yeah, so I’m just trying to, I’m just working the work is how do I make the writing for fun? Fun and just like, you know, separate it from work, writing and, you know, um, so that’s what I’ve been doing. I think the, the other thing that it has. Just on the whole journey aspect of things. I mean, that has been work that I’ve been trying hard to do for at least two years. It’s just like enjoying the now, enjoying the present, staying in the moment. And I think that this was another proof point to me of how. Wanting what you don’t have. Let me see. Let me try to articulate it because it’s that. Well, it’s that balance between having goals and being fine with what is right and, and finding that balance. And I think this was even, even though I have worked to build up my daily life as the this is the good part. Um, I can sometimes get pulled into the trap of, oh, well, there could be something better. Um, and I think that that’s part of what this idea was. And, and I don’t want to be too critical to myself. Like, I don’t think I was trying to like necessarily this, this attempt at escape, if we can even call it that was not as acute as other escape attempts I have made. If that makes sense.

Renae: Yeah.

Laura: But I think it still had an element of that, you know, and, um, it was a really interesting learning for me that, um, just more evidence that you don’t really need the escape as much as you sometimes can think that you do. And that, um, I think in, in a good way, it was um, evidence that what, what, the way that I’m living now is the way that I want to live. You know, with some maybe adjustments, some goals that I’m working towards, but nothing major. You know, and there’s some of those elements are some that I’ve put in place and other of those elements are, are elements that, um, that I can have at this time of my life because my kids are grown ups. You know, I sometimes I see people that are actively raising children and that’s hard work. And I don’t, I know from experience that you don’t have as much time to pursue personal passions as I do now. Um, so I think some of it is circumstantial, I guess, because, you know, right now it’s just us. Uh, but in other ways, I think the intentionality behind just trying to make every day the goal instead of some future thing that you’re basically never going to get to, right?

Renae: Oh, that something you’re never going to get to? That’s very meaty. Because that that’s a truth telling that you just did, um, for yourself.

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: Because why would you set a goal that you’re never going to get to? Write it. There’s like a, there’s, um. Those goals are set when we’re watching other people succeed

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: and wanting to, we imagine what it would be like to inhabit that. And so then we set a goal based on that. But that’s on their reality and their personality and their gifting and all those different types of things. So it’s, it’s, it is not it’s not just comparison though. And so then it becomes the what would make me feel that way that I can actually do. And

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: that’s the discernment part where I think we, um, you know, we socially, we get really conditioned to fit in and work those steps, work the program. You know, there’s a, there’s a formula, there’s a way that we do things. Um, and that’s not especially for artists. That’s not true. Like if you have a different brain, that is just not how it works.

Laura: Yeah, yeah. We Dan and I were talking yesterday about just how, you know, everything has to be a framework and everything has to be productive and everything has to be to some certain end. And we were talking about that balance between doing nothing and being ultra productive and trying to find the middle of that and embracing the framework while you let go of the framework. And understanding that process isn’t linear, progress isn’t linear. Um, I think there’s also an element too of I think that for me, a lot of times contentment has felt really conditional. Like, well, when this happens, then I’ll be content. Or when this is like this, then I’m going to be able to do this other thing that I’ve been wanting to do. And I think what I have been working on learning and, um, have found some more success with lately is there’s no, you don’t have to wait. It’s now, now is the time. Like

Renae: Yeah,

Laura: there’s, there’s

Renae: yeah.

Laura: no condition that you’re going to meet because then what happens is you meet that condition and you know, to your point, you either have said it against someone else’s ideal and that’s not really what you wanted. Um, but you don’t know that until you get there. And then you’re then you’re like, okay, well, now I have to do this other thing instead of just, um, carving out contentment and joy from the present moment and the present circumstance.

Renae: Yeah, there’s there’s such a good wisdom in that, I think. And we’ve talked about it before about that. Like the point is the journey, not the not the end. There is no there there. And I think for my own in my own journey and practices, what has come up for me is I need to set a North Star for every project that I’m doing right. That I. It’s, it is not a a framework. It is not a strategy. It is a. What is the point that I am doing here? And anything that point that anything that I’m doing that. Points to that is is the right thing. So it can be a hundred different things as long as I am pointing toward North Star.

Laura: Yeah, yeah, I really like that. I have a set of things like that similar, just like like life stuff, which is like, I want to feel like I’m having fun. I want to feel like I am being kind and generous. I want to feel like, you know, I’m taking bold action, whatever that means. You know, and I like, I, it’s almost like a, a list that you’re vetting your activities against, right? And

Renae: One

Laura: it, it

Renae: hundred

Laura: doesn’t,

Renae: percent.

Laura: that’s not a place you’re getting to, that’s just like a now thing that you’re, that you’re doing?

Renae: Well, it’s so it’s like a it’s an alignment check, right?

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: So it’s

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: a values alignment check where you’re saying, um, is, is this life giving to me? I’ve identified the things that are going to be life giving to me.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: Um, because I’m an adult and I’ve been on this earth for five decades and I’m, you know, I’ve, I’ve spent time looking inside of myself and having conversations and checking with wise counsel and checking my internal wisdom. And, and so I know what’s important to me. And I, and I, I’m just checking to make sure that what I’m doing is not a default or is I’m not being swept up in something. And then it also lets us, I think, check and see, you know, what, what our motivations are for things. If we’re being driven by curiosity or for being driven by fear.

Laura: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s that’s the, that’s the one. Right. I mean, and not like when you when you sit down and you like, write down whatever these North Star ideas are like, sometimes they’re not groundbreaking, right? You know what I mean? It’s just like, of course. But I also think if you don’t intentionally do it, fear is driving the action.

Renae: Right?

Laura: So it’s not complicated, but also it takes time and it takes internal reflection. And I, I think that. Those kind of practices can feel like an extra thing to do when really they’re the most important thing to do.

Renae: One hundred percent. And I mean, and I think that’s right. So if in some respects, industries would crumble if everyone stopped and developed their North Star and said, this is how I’m going to live my life. Because then you couldn’t. You. The more that people are fulfilling their own personal purpose, the less

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: likely they are to put up with spaces and places that are requiring them to suppress who they actually are in order to produce or, or make something or participate.

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: And so there’s, there is a buy in. It’s by design in order to make industries work that we wouldn’t do that. This is the, I think at the heart of why, um, I’ve called myself an artist for a very long time. People are like, oh, what’s your medium? And I’m like, whatever. Because it’s been so many different things, whether it’s been paint, whether it’s been paper, whether it’s been yarn, um, whether it’s been music, whether it’s been food. Um, but there is a, um, The. The heart of the artist is expression.

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: And expression can disrupt the norms. And the norms really don’t like that.

Laura: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting. Just with my daughter as she was getting prepared for when you are saying like, the norms don’t like this, it just really reminded me of like on a smaller scale. So my daughter getting ready to go out west, she is going, she’s going to be living at in a tent at um, Devil’s Tower, which is in eastern Wyoming. And she’ll be traveling around to like, you know, um, Fort Laramie and Mount Rushmore. And she’s removing invasive plant species, which is a great opportunity for her. And, um, also everyone from, you know, her friends to my mom, to us, we’re like, oh, what about this? What about this? Can you, you know, like, what are like, don’t forget about this thing. And we’re like texting her and we’re calling her. And I think it really started to overwhelm her a little bit. And, um, you know, she was talking about it and she said, you know, don’t people think I can handle this? And I think, you know what? It’s it’s less about that and more about our own discomfort for that thing. We’ve never driven twenty hours by ourselves to live in a tent all summer. Uh, you know what I mean? So like, we’re doing worst case scenario planning because we feel unsafe. And so we want to make sure that you’re safe because, you know, like it’s a reflection on our feelings. And, um, so I think that’s a, it’s a similar thing, right? You know, like people are doing, are expressing themselves in ways that are making us feel like, whoa, like, I don’t know about that. And you have this adverse reaction to it, um, without really realizing it.

Renae: When it requires a level of safety. I think that’s part of the like you, you you cannot find true stillness or contentment or rest when you’re not feeling safe.

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: You can find pauses. You can find relief. But you, you, you. It’s not safe to be still and rest. You’re going to stay hyper vigilant.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: Like there’s a level of vigilance. And I think that, um, it’s been interesting with in my own, um, experience over the last eighteen, whatever months. Um, of, of not having a permanent residence and not having any surety about what’s going to happen next. I mean, at the as of the recording of this podcast, we literally need to move out of our place in four days and we don’t know where we’re going to go. And I’m not I’m not terrified or scared or whatever. We’ll figure we will figure it out. It doesn’t feel great, but it is interesting to me that what would have felt like catastrophic, however many months ago in twenty twenty four and this whole thing started, um, there, there is a level of, I finally found certain levels of safety that have allowed me to say, okay, I’m not comfortable, but I’m content enough. Right. I’ve learned what I can. I’ve learned what I can withstand, and what I can and can’t do in a lot of respects. And that does give me more peace.

Laura: So what would you how would you describe those practices that have allowed you to move from that place of like, you know, like terror about not having a place to land to now a, what an, an acceptance of, you know, the

Renae: Yeah.

Laura: circumstance and the knowledge that you’re going to keep moving.

Renae: Um, so definitely the and it’s, it’s not a, um, acquiescence or a, um, like a, like a default of. Well, I guess this is what we got to do. Like I’m not Eyeore-ing it through

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: with my, with my red balloon. Um, but it’s I do think that my daily practice is right at the center of this for me, because it’s been enough of a constant. And, and to be very clear, I usually miss Saturdays and Sundays, I’m usually sleeping. And then immediately after I sleep in, go to do something. And so I don’t love that, but, but, um, but during the week, um, unless there’s some emergency, I’m, I’m even if it’s two in the afternoon because I’ve had a speaking engagement in the morning or whatever, I’m still doing that practice. And so I think that, um, saying I’m, again, I’m carving out this forty five minutes to an hour every day and, and checking in with myself and seeing where I’m at and making sure that I have a space where I can express myself and identify my needs and figure out my capacity and and be kind to myself. I mean, there’s this, um, I’m asking myself questions like, you know, how I’m feeling. Um, I, I select a color each day that’s like a representation and it’s not like a legend. I just look and I go, what color do I feel? And it’s super interesting because you can go back and look at months and be like, oh, there’s a lot of blues here, or there’s a lot of greens across the month, or these are some more muted tones. And, um, so I’m checking in with that. I’m asking myself, what’s the most important thing I need to do today? And what am I noticing? And how did I sleep? What’s my stress level? Um, have I, you know, how am I taking care of my, my body? Um, let you know, how am I checking in to make sure that, um, I am in my purpose that I’m finding joy. And so there’s all these different aspects of what do I need and, and what and, and knowing that. I don’t have to rely fully on my external circumstances to meet those needs. I can actually meet meet a lot of those needs.

Laura: Ah, that’s a key thing right there. Right? Like I don’t have to wait until conditions are perfect to meet my own needs.

Renae: Yeah. And that’s not, that’s not, um, that’s hard won knowledge, not knowledge. Wisdom.

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: Right. That it’s, um, I have a, I have, I love my husband, I love my husband, I love my husband. And, um, he falls in this worry space. Like it is so hard for me. It is just really, really hard for me because, um, he definitely, um, processes things differently than I do. Like we, we got into a little bit of a kerfuffle earlier this week because I asked a question about something and he said, well, I was enjoying my evening. We were watching the show and then you had to bring that up and I and now I’m worried. And I said there were. The circumstances are exactly the same as before we started watching this show. Then nothing has changed. I’m just asking a question about it. He’s like, but now I’m thinking about it and I’m like, oh, here’s how our brains are different. I don’t ever forget that it’s there. It’s always there. I’m not, I can’t escape. I can’t escape it. I don’t know how to do that. It’s always right there. And so it’s the. How do I have to learn? I’ve had to learn to live with it. Being there and say, me stressing out about it, me worrying about it, me cycling about it is doing nothing.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: So I’m going to have to wait to worry until I can actually do something about it.

Laura: Right, right. And that’s tough too, I think. I mean, I’ve been in that space too. It happens to me especially like with money where you’re just like, oh my God, all these bills or, or whatever it is, whatever the circumstances are the money circumstances for me. And I really had to, I went through a year that was a really down year. And I’m really glad because it really taught me to be like, you know what, I’m doing the best I can. And, and feeling sick about it all the time is not changing the situation at all. So might as well just feel fine knowing that I’m doing what I can do.

Renae: And it’s not like a blind eye or toxic positivity or,

Laura: Right?

Renae: you know, it is just, yeah, this, this circumstance completely is is happening. And I’m not pretending it’s not happening.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: And also, I will use up my problem solving resources and energy with worrying, with, with spiraling. Or I can say, okay, let’s sit with the crappy feelings about this and say, yep, that is true. It feels this way. I don’t like how this feels. What can I do to take care of myself right now to make sure that I don’t spiral or I don’t default or, um, what things can, what successes can I have that help me to remember that I am a problem solver or that I can take action, or I can have an impact on the world and it doesn’t become a default of everything. Everything’s awful, everything’s bad, and I can’t do anything. Um, I do think that there is a, as we’re preparing for the next, um, the next parts project topic that and also the restoration sessions for, for June that this concept of hyper vigilance like I’m, I. I am that part. I am fully aware of that. I’m continually like, okay, I can’t have too much fun because then I will use my energy in case something else happens.

Laura: Mhm

Renae: So

Laura: mhm.

Renae: there is a. So there is a contentment, but there’s also a a balance of. We’re just keeping things on an even keel.

Laura: Mhm mhm. Yeah. I think just to back up for one second, I think in a really important distinction that you made, um, is there’s a difference between understanding that a circumstance is and not not spiraling and using up all your energy, worrying about it and not also like blocking it out and being an escapist either, like ignoring that that ever exists. You know, like, I feel like that’s probably just as destructive as overworrying about it. Um, so I appreciate that you pointed that out that it was that it’s, you know, still an active, ongoing problem that you’re working on solving. You’re just working on solving it in a way that’s more productive than simply being anxious about it.

Renae: Yeah. And the anxiety comes and

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: goes. Um, and, and I’ve learned how to, you know, there are people I can reach out to when that happens. And then there are people that I don’t, um, and I don’t reach out to people who are problem solvers when I’m anxious, I don’t need them to solve my problem. I need them to hold my, like, be in the yes, this is hard. You’re not gaslighting yourself. This is really hard

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: type of energy.

Laura: Mhm. Mhm.

Renae: What do you tend to what do you tend to not? Maybe not. Default is not the right word, but what is your pattern usually around that?

Laura: Around, um, allaying anxiety. Yeah, I think that I do. Um, I count on my parts work a lot. So I have that exercise where I say, okay, you know, like I’m going to talk to my parts and I’ll say, okay, I’d like to talk to the part that is worried about X, Y, z, the part that’s getting angry about X, Y, Z, whatever. And then, you know, just talking to that part. And as in a journaling exercise, like, why are you doing, why are you feeling this way? Why are you doing what you’re doing? What would happen if you didn’t have to do that? And just really trying to get to just really an understanding of myself and, and why all of this is presenting itself because I have started to view, um, those parts as. Like, you know, I think that’s the whole point of all of our, you know, this series of parts is like, how are you? How can you take that and understand it and then make it your ally, right? So, you know, say, well, what if you didn’t have to worry about that? And you understand that, you know, I’m a fifty year old woman capable of solving problems and doing things. Would you prefer to have a role where you are helping in this, where you are, you know, part of the solution and then and working from there. And then also just like understanding what is happening underneath all of that, like what might have been a circumstance where. You know, like where I didn’t have money, let’s say. And that was really upsetting. And, or when I saw someone else not have money and, and it was really upsetting. And then just kind of pulling that apart a little bit and be like, well, yeah, of course, that was, it was really upsetting. But you know, like here in the future, I can tell you that things turned out okay. You know, like

Renae: Mhm.

Laura: we’re good. And, um, so that is a work that I do almost every single day because there’s always something, right? That’s, that’s coming up that’s either keeping me from there’s something that’s holding me back from doing a thing that I want to do, or there’s something that’s on my mind. And so I just, I’m continually trying to dig deeper into like, like fully understand myself in a, in a compassionate way.

Renae: Yeah. I think that’s part of there’s a that’s where the through line is for both of us is that I’m, you know, understanding and meeting the needs with compassion, um, and not with the expectation that there’s going to be a particular, um, you know, you’re not trying to motivate yourself into something, you’re not trying to convince yourself. It is really a lot of truth telling to

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: yourself and saying, you know, you’re going, this is going to be uncomfortable and it’s going to be okay, that it’s uncomfortable. Because look at the history of how many times you’ve been uncomfortable before and it’s turned out all right.

Laura: Right.

Renae: And so we’re, we’re going to enter into that space where we don’t know what the, what we don’t know what the answer is. We don’t know what the solution is yet. We don’t know what the end of the story is. And that’s okay.

Laura: Yeah, yeah. Like being okay with uncertainty, I think is a is a learned skill, right.

Renae: Great. So in, in your. Data collecting and fact finding mission that you were on. Because we can’t call it a vacation.

Laura: The, the fourteen day trip that had four days of vacation in it. Yes.

Renae: So you’ve, you’ve learned that. um, the, the idea of what something was going to be the, the practical application is um if everything had turned out rosy, um, and had been great, you might have come back and said, okay, yeah, we can do this thing. But what happened instead was things went wrong, things went sideways, it was uncomfortable, and it wasn’t uncomfortable in a place where you were able to say, it’s okay because there’s still this beauty. It’s okay because there’s still this peace. You didn’t find peace and beauty in there that that made it worthwhile to hang out in that discomfort.

Laura: Yeah, yeah, that’s an interesting thing because I usually am amazing at reframing and be like, well, at least this is happening. At least this happening. I was just like kind of miserable. And, um, my husband and I, we get along really great and this was just a new. We were together a lot, but we also live in a house where we have our own space and we have our own interests and hobbies that we do. And, um, being together in this way, just completely on top of each other for fourteen days. And especially like the camping part, you know, he’s so organized and so, um, he just likes to have things the way he likes to have them and everything has to be efficient and useful. And it’s a really a great strength of his. But also it can kind of, you know, be something of a hindrance when, you know, you’re unpacking your car and trying to put things in the tent. And I’m trying to be helpful putting things in the tent. And he’s like, don’t put it in like that. It needs to go in like this. And he’s trying to figure out the optimal way to like load up the tent. And to him, that’s just an interesting thing that he needs to solve that problem. And to me, it’s like, this sucks. I’m like standing here, you know? And so it was a whole new way of communicating with each other that we haven’t had. We haven’t had to work out communication problems for a long time. And so I while it was not fun, I appreciate that it happened. And like the other thing too is like, as I’ve been filling out this little where I have like ideas from my little travel book, um, all of the ideas are like, you know, raccoons got in our tent. So like, I made a little picture about that. And then it’s like we driving through Central Florida, we, we kept encountering these giant swarms of bugs and they were hitting our windshield like tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap. It sounded like rain and like you to the point you couldn’t see out of the windshield. And we had to stop and like, wipe it down. And there was just all these bug carcasses all over the car and like, that’s the kind of thing that I want to like put it in this book. And, and Dan said, well, aren’t you going to put any of the fun times? And I was like, you know what’s interesting? Like stories have to have conflict and some drama to them. I mean, like, you’re not, no one’s writing a novel about how amazing their vacation on the beach was. Like, nothing happens, right? Like that’s kind of how you want it. But in the story, that’s interesting, you want to hear all the crazy stuff that went wrong. So yeah, it was uncomfortable. And I lived and I’m glad it happened and maybe don’t want to do it again.

Renae: Well, there you have it. I have quite a few things in my life that I look back and I’m like, I, I don’t know that I would make that same choice again. I don’t think I would choose that again. Um, and I think that that’s an important piece of too is um, which is interesting, which we haven’t, I mean, I don’t think you’ve been back that long, but, um, there might even be a little bit of grief and loss process around letting go of the idea of what you thought it could be. Right? This, like if you had this say you were a little more invested in the let’s travel around and camp and have it be van people or whatever. And now it’s like, yeah, that is so not the thing. And letting go of that.

Laura: Yeah. I think another thing too is, um, just the idea letting go of the idea that we wasted money, you

Renae: Um.

Laura: know, that we, I mean, it was a pretty cheap trip, which is the was part of the attraction. Can we travel this much and do it really cheaply? But we still paid. We still spent a lot of money. And, you know, I think part of my discomfort during the trip is like, I can’t believe we’re paying to do this when we would be having more fun at home. And so, I mean, that was another exercise just being like, well, this is what it is. And, you know, I, I’d love to get mad about how much money we wasted. And also it’s sunk cost. You know, I mean,

Renae: Right?

Laura: it’s, it’s now gone. So the only thing to do is to move forward from that.

Renae: Right. Well, and it wasn’t wasted because you wouldn’t have been able to know

Laura: True.

Renae: what you needed,

Laura: Right.

Renae: like,

Laura: At least we didn’t buy a van.

Renae: right?

Laura: This is a lot cheaper than investing in a van and finding out that we hated car camping.

Renae: Right.

Laura: Yeah, yeah.

Renae: Like, yeah, and I don’t have to. I, I, we’ve been watching, um, for all mankind. Um, and I can’t believe we slept on that show, but we’re

Laura: Oh, good.

Renae: really

Laura: So

Renae: enjoying

Laura: you like it, huh?

Renae: it.

Laura: I’ll have to try it out.

Renae: I, well, I love alternative history things

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: anyway. Um, and so it, it’s the, the, the ways that they’re telling the stories and also like the sounds really good. There’s a lot of really good acting.

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: It’s just, I’m really, really impressed with it. I shouldn’t be surprised. I think Ronald de Moore does great stuff. But um, I keep saying to my husband, it is never been more clear to me in my life that I would just never want to be an astronaut. This is like everything about this would be terrible. I would like they’re like, let’s go and be on the moon and like, do this. And I’m like, let’s go and be Astraphobia and have to pee in a cup like, you know,

Laura: It

Renae: a

Laura: sounds

Renae: can.

Laura: like a nightmare to me. Yeah, I’m. I’m with you on that. Right.

Renae: And I’m stuck and I can’t get home. I can’t go home after, you know, a day early. I’m stuck

Laura: Right.

Renae: and I have to eat this terrible food. And I’m like, there is nothing about this. Like, there is no part of me that would want to be like, I need to conquer the stars or be someplace no one’s ever been. I don’t know, I’m good. I don’t

Laura: Nope.

Renae: care,

Laura: Right,

Renae: like,

Laura: right.

Renae: cool. Good for you.

Laura: I’ll stay here in Ohio. Thank you.

Renae: I’m fine. So.

Laura: That’s amazing. Yeah. You know, hearing you talk about, um, when you were saying there was some choices that you made that you wish you hadn’t done, but you’re, you know, you’re glad that you did it and I. One thing that I’ve been interested in lately is, is like not only just finding contentment in the moment, but also knowing when you’re in one of those, not even necessarily a bad choice that you made, but just a circumstance that you’re living through. And how do you enjoy the fire of this transformative experience while you are living through it? To me, I find that really interesting and, and a challenge that I’m working on solving, I guess.

Renae: Yeah. I think, um, I will continually come back to running as my example. Um, and I don’t again, I don’t really run, I amble and I jog and whatever I like sprint and I walk, I sprint and I walk. Um, but the, the. The pain. During those moments of intensity have to be counteracted by recovery periods. I think that’s the. If you can have recovery periods, you’re less likely to be in crisis or less likely to be, um, um, stuck in an activated stage.

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: Um, then you can like learn from it and then you can build. I think that your, the marker for can I actually, um, apply or learn anything from this or um, process it or, or whatever is, do I have recovery periods? And if

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: I don’t, then this is not a time for learning. This is a time for surviving.

Laura: Yeah yeah yeah. Good, good. Um. Good wisdom there.

Renae: So I think we need recovery periods. And you took one at

Laura: Yeah,

Renae: the end.

Laura: such

Renae: You’re like,

Laura: as it was.

Renae: I’m out, I’m

Laura: I’m in a

Renae: out.

Laura: recovery period now from my recovery period.

Renae: It’s so funny. Like we were talking about, you know, retreat. And that was not a retreat. That

Laura: Right.

Renae: was this was this was a work trip. Um.

Laura: Right, right. It was,

Renae: It was

Laura: it

Renae: not relaxing.

Laura: was.

Renae: This is not relaxing. Um, there’s nothing that you described her that was relaxing it. None of it brought me peace. None of it made me go, oh, I want to do that. None of it. Not a single thing. Not a single

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: thing. You said all of it was like, this is terrible. This is terrible. Let’s never do that again.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: So

Laura: Now we know

Renae: we know.

Laura: it is interesting though, too, because like, I feel like at this point in our lives, like we kind of know what we like and what we don’t, right? You know what I mean? And I’m like, especially you people like you and I who do a lot of self-reflection. And so this was, I think, a funny now I can say that it’s funny, um, like just learning brand new information in, in a volume that I haven’t had in a while.

Renae: Right?

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: Oh my gosh. Well, I can’t wait to see your your art and

Laura: Thank you.

Renae: the stuff that comes out. That was really cool. The, the, uh, first image that you showed me there was really cool. So, um, well, thank you for your stories. Um, and for sharing about this terrible anti vacation.

Laura: My pleasure. Why,

Renae: You’re.

Laura: why, why put all of that amazing, tragic experience to waste other than and share it with other people?

Renae: That’s right. It belongs to everyone now.

Laura: That’s right.

Renae: There you go.

Laura: That’s everyone’s tragedy.

Renae: Thanks, Laura.

Laura: All right. Thank you.