The Mask Isn’t One of Your Parts: What Masking Protects, and What It Costs

Renae: Okay. Um, so, it’s like a, a bridge episode. Um, just talking a little bit about our parts and like in concert with the concept of masking like that.

Laura: Talk about masking.

Renae: Masking. Are you familiar with masking?

Laura: No. Tell me about it.

Renae: Okay. Well, I’ll pretend that we’re going to. We’ll just start right there. Um, yeah. So masking is it is a survival strategy that, um, brains will put into place when people, um, when they, when their brains recognized that the environment is not safe, whether it’s like the physical environment or the people around them aren’t safe. And so it is a suppression of who they are largely and a mask that is acceptable. That is not going to draw criticism or ire or all sorts of things. And, um, I think we, we don’t have that in general until, you know. All right. I, we don’t really start to develop that until like ages seven or eight when we become much more aware of our differences from other people. Um, and then the feeling of being rejected and excluded based on what we look like or things we do or things about us. Um, but it becomes Particularly prevalent for um women in um male dominated industries or cultures or spaces, um, particularly, um creatives, uh, creatives, both male and female. Um, people who would, um, any, anybody who falls into, um, a marginalized category when they’re heading into a space that’s like very dominant culture. Um, so it’s different than code switching and it’s not. Uh, it, it takes a lot of effort, but it’s not always like, um, oh, I need to put my mask on. Therefore I’m going to, whereas code switching is, oh, I need to speak with a different accent dialect set of, you know, syntax set of words, right? Like that’s a little more. It’s that’s that’s a conscious.

Laura: Uh, so it’s more intentional. Code switching is like, I’m doing this on purpose because I’m really aware of how I need to be. Whereas masking your say just kind of more subconsciously happens. Is that what you’re telling me?

Renae: It, it does. Um, in the end, when it becomes conscious, then it, it, it sends in my experience, it tends to way more like it is very much a, oh, I’m, I’m a fish out of water. Right. And I need to just shut down every part of me that’s making me look very different or seem very different from other people and put on what is an acceptable mask.

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: Um, and, and so this, I think that when we’re talking about the survival pieces of like how our, our parts will emerge to protect us. Um, it’s I think that’s very different to me. It’s the, that’s some of the truest parts of us, right? Like to the saying, well, I’m, you know, I’m a protective part of this person versus, um, masking is the shutting down of the parts. And it’s a, it’s more of a facade. It’s not the actual self. Um, and so yeah, that, that’s, that’s kind of what I’ve been thinking about recently. Um, especially as I’ve been, I pulled out an old bullet journal from a number of years ago and was looking at all the things I was doing, which, oh my goodness, I, I just basically love having two full time jobs all the time. Um, but as I was looking through, um, you know, like I wrote had a gratitude page At the beginning of the month, the monthly layout, and every day I would write something that I was grateful for, and I was looking through that and thinking to myself, man, there’s a lot of pain underneath a lot of this because I really wasn’t allowed to show up in my spaces as myself are.

Laura: And do you feel like that was I mean, as you’re thinking, I mean, this is what is bringing up masking for you. So what were you thinking about as like the reason for that? Or like, and do you feel like it’s different now?

Renae: Well, not in that environment that was causing the most pain. I mean, neither of those environments. Um. And I think that has a lot to, to do with it. I think in both of those places, I was told that it was okay for me to be me. And so I believed people.

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: And then quickly learned, oh, wait. No, they have they’ve got very little interest in that. Like, I’m here to complete a task in the way that they think I should complete the task. But as far as who I am, they don’t actually know what to do with me. And they don’t really want all of that. So a curated version of me.

Laura: Well, tell me more about how that was showing up. I mean, what were you as you in like, as you’re looking back, like, what parts of you were you masking? Or if you can be that detailed, I don’t know.

Renae: Yeah. I’m going to be really careful. Um, I like one just really salient. Um, part of it was, you know, as we’ve talked before, I’ve, I tend to see patterns and be able to project outcomes. If we continue in in the vein, right. We being the organization, a family, a group or whatever, like if we continue down this path, these, these, this is the cause and effect, like here’s what’s going to happen. And, um, there was a, a pretty intense discussion where we were recognizing that some people have very micro views of the world and some people have, um, a mezzo view of kind of understanding some of the systems. And then people who have the macro view, it’s like lots of big, you know, overview. Um, and that people were articulating underneath what they were saying that they were having a hard time moving between those different views and understanding how it was connected. Well, and that’s how my brain works. And so as I said, well, like this and this and this and, you know, like in this meeting in like two people nodded their head and everyone else looked at me like I was imaginary unicorn sitting there or something and just kind of looked, stared at me and I went, okay, this is like super, super weird, you know, it’s a room full of thirty people. And we’re having like, it was a day long meeting. And we’re, these are big conversations we’re having about the organization and the team. And, and about an hour later, someone else had been there for a really long time. Um, basically says what I said an hour ago and everyone’s like, oh my gosh, yes. And it was it almost verbatim. And I turned the person next to me who had been one of the people who nodded. And I’m like, I literally said that, That’s right. Like was I, was I invisible, right. And so it was if the content’s the same, but the delivery was accepted by a different person who had a different relational and a different, you know, they were a different had a different approach, different person, you know, um, and that was one of many experiences like that where it, the, the container, the delivery, the, however it was that, um, whatever I, my presence and personality was evoking what feelings it was evoking in other people meant they couldn’t hear what I was saying.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: But they could hear the same exact thing from someone else. That wasn’t me. Right.

Laura: And so then when you bring masking into that, what were you doing to like, how were you masking to compensate for that?

Renae: Um, I would, um, have to not say what I thought not, um, like posit it in different ways and say, oh, well, what about like very non-threatening, curious, um. Tagging it on to what other people said so that it was their credibility, making myself much smaller. I think that was a big part of it too, is just.

Laura: I was literally thinking, I was literally about to say like, you were making yourself smaller to fit into that space.

Renae: one hundred percent, one hundred percent. Now there’s a there were a lot of people with charisma in that room. There were a lot of very passionate people in that room. Um. There were a lot of neurodivergent people in that room. I don’t think many of them knew it. So that was a thing too, that, um, like maybe part of the shutdown from folks is that there was something about my own different brain that might have been, you know, holding up a mirror that they didn’t want to look in yet. Um, but yeah, it was, it was.

Laura: Interesting. It’s funny when you, I, that has happened to me too. And I was trying to, as you were describing it, I was trying to remember like, what did I do in those situations? And I always like, I always felt like I needed to like people didn’t trust me or take me seriously. And so I felt like I needed to fight to make that, to get people to listen to me. Um, and it was in male dominated, um, workplace. And I also was like one of the younger people in the room. So I kind of always attributed it to that, that like, no one’s taking me seriously because I’m not old enough. Um, but yeah, that’s really interesting that, that, that, that has happened. I hadn’t thought about that in a really long time. That happened to me, you know, and others. But like I, as you’re talking about masking and I was like, I was trying to think about whether I’ve ever like, have I done that? Like, I’ve certainly been in situations, environments that were not a good fit for me where I was not performing well. And I, I like to me, I feel like it’s less in those situations. It was less me masking and more me just showing up as the, the least healthiest version of myself, You know, like all my worst qualities coming to the forefront. They’re not necessarily not part of me, like not pretending to be something different. But just like though, you’re getting the worst of me right now because of those situations.

Renae: Well, and that’s still you though, right? Yeah, that’s.

Laura: That’s what I mean.

Renae: Like, yeah, that’s still, that’s still you. And, um. Like I remember. Go ahead.

Laura: Well, I was just going to ask a question so I can tell you that that strategy did not work. Did, did it work for you to be smaller? No, that didn’t work either.

Renae: Well, it worked for them to an extent, but it didn’t work for me. And I think that that’s part of the um, because it was, it was after some of. some points in my life where I started to rebel against, you know, constraints that that especially false constraints, um, that were squishing me, that were silencing me, that were not, um, allowing me to actually express myself. And so, um, that just went against my, um, my own healing and growth journey. And so it would, it just wouldn’t abide. Um, and it didn’t, that situation didn’t work out not because fully because of that, there was actually like technical things that had nothing to do with that situation. But um, certainly there wasn’t enough of, uh, well, it’s good people. I can, you know, we can wait and see what happens with this other piece. Um, because I really wanted to stay. Um, and I, And I’m sad. I’m, I’m actually really sad. I’m not still in that role. Um, because I know I could do some really good work there. Um, and I was talking to, um, one of my friends who still lives there and said, man, sometimes I’m, I’m sad that I said, I can’t do this. Um, and she said, you know, it looks better, but it’s, it’s still the same culture. Like every, every problem that you had before, you would still continue to have that, that none of that’s changed. Yeah. Um, because I could speak very plainly with her about it.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: Um, and then I’m thinking about like. And I know where it comes from, right? Like for that childhood piece of you’re not allowed to have big emotions, you’re not allowed to express your anger. Um, except very calmly. Um, um, you know, you need to be completely regulated, which is not actual regulation. Um, it was something else. But but that’s but that is masking, right? Like if I’m mad, I need to be able to say, this is pissing me off. Yeah. And it needs to be okay for me to say I’m angry and without it meaning anything for anyone else other than I’m expressing myself. It’s healthy for me to say that.

Laura: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So you left that environment and then have you felt like you’ve needed to do that before? And like, when at what point did you or like, do you feel like you’ve needed to do that since? And at what point did you also become like consciously aware of like, oh, I was masking and I’m not going to do that anymore because I feel like you’re at a place where you’re not going to do that anymore. I mean, I’m making assumptions, but Yep.

Renae: I’m. I think you’ve picked up on a true thing about me. Um, and. I think it was the systematic like it was. Once I had realized what was happening to me because I wasn’t. I was, was, had it was a survival facade that wasn’t actually me, but it was what was acceptable.

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: And realizing, um, as a person who feels very strongly about honesty and integrity, that, that, that’s, that is neither of those things for me. And therefore my, my, I couldn’t live out my values and continue to suppress who I am. Um, and I think that there’s a big part of it, too, that I think this the Neurodivergence piece has a lot to do with it, um, in that having so many years of trying to force myself to fit into systems that were not great in the way that I had to contort myself, it was not good for me. It was it, it, it has caused trauma. It has caused lots of harm. Um, and so as I heal from it, you know, when you heal, you don’t put yourself back in the thing that’s causing you harm, right? Um, so, um, a lot of, you know, a lot of reflection and, and pausing to say like, what part of this is mine? What part of this is theirs? What part of this is ours? So there’s that particular practice. Yeah. Um. And then I’ll. And then I’ll look. I will look at how is this making me feel? And is this is this wounding some core parts of me?

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: Right. Like is am can I feel is this is this exacerbating a pattern of being invalidated or diminished or dismissed? And that’s actually super painful for me.

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: And part of the unmasking is allowing myself to feel that I think for many years I just shut that part of, like, shut down my discontent, pushed through, made things happen. You know, there’s the reason my husband called me a Cylon for so many years. Um, because he’s like, you know, you just keep going. You don’t seem to have feelings about things. The truth is, I’ve had the feelings the whole time.

Laura: Right? Right. It just became really skilled at not not letting them from their dark place in the soul.

Renae: So I think it’s different when, I mean, I think that that particular it is in its advanced coping strategy. Lots of people use it. There’s no shame. There’s no like something’s wrong with you. It’s just the awareness of, um, and looking at it as, you know, if I’m not able to express myself, there’s a very good chance I have depression because like, that’s like right at the core of myself as being depressed.

Laura: Mhm. Yeah. You know, it makes me think of just, I mean, like a bigger question about just like the culture of an organization or workplace. Like, is it, I mean, because I’ve certainly been part of cultures that where I was, like I said, working at my worst, but I’ve also been part of cultures where I really loved being there because everyone else was just as weird as me. And I, um, it’s not like in other places I was hiding that necessarily, but just like I just didn’t really let it all out because nobody really got it. And so it’s not fun to be, you know what I mean? Like, it’s not fun to make weird jokes when nobody gets them. But it is fun to do when people do. And when people understand you and know what you’re talking about. And in those places, I guess, I guess I’m, it’s making me wonder, like, is it okay to have a really distinct culture where not everybody is going to fit in? And is it, do you know what I mean? Versus like, because then are people going to have to come people that let’s, I’m just using this term weird. I mean, you know, I’m using it a little bit lightly, but like people that aren’t weird, are they going to have to come in and act weird? I mean, like, at what point do you say like, everything has to be for everybody? I don’t think that’s true. But also, like, you could become so niche that people feel like they have to mask. Or is it like you should just always find the best environment for you? I know you don’t always have that kind of option when you need to have a paycheck. I mean, talk about that. What do you think?

Renae: Um, I, yeah, I love this question. And this is a, there’s a talk that I give and I think I’ve referenced before that’s, uh, that says, um, no one is authentically a jerk. And, and I really, I think that people who are, I think all people have the propensity for unique creative self-expression and that some people have had the opportunity to develop that and some people have not. Some people have are aware of it, some people are not. And that we, we can go back and forth in in where we are in that spectrum all, all during our life. And we do, um, I think everybody has weird. I think everybody has, um, I think that when we, what I hear you describing is in places where it’s safe and where you are able to play and experiment and try, um, that you found a lot of freedom and that freedom requires there to be a level of safety that says it’s okay if everybody doesn’t like you still belong here, even if everyone doesn’t get all the jokes.

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: Even if sometimes it’s a miss, even if people don’t quite understand, you’re not devalued or dismissed. Mhm. There’s a space for you. Yeah. Um, and so however that expression comes out, there’s a space for you. And that takes such intentionality. And I’ve, and I know that I’ve created that in some of the places where I’ve been the in charge adult, it’s been actually a really big, um, I use that as my body of evidence of, oh, no, we can actually do this like this. It’s not impossible. Um. It does mean that that intentionality has to. Be a continuing practice. It means that leadership has to be on board. Um, it means that celebrating. Humanity has to have the same weight as the production. That’s hard for people. Um, and so that does mean that the people who are studying in the culture and who are maintaining the culture and continuing to grow it have to have done a certain level of work to not be responding out of fear, but to be responding out of openness and curiosity and like a, a knowingness of their core enough that someone else’s behaviors or actions aren’t going to derail them.

Laura: Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. So what you’re describing is almost like a layer on top of that, which is just like, you can feel free to bring it all. Like we might not all love Star Trek, but if you do, you can go ahead and talk about it like it’s fine. But if every but if ninety people here love Star Trek and you hate it like it might not be the greatest fit for you, but we don’t. We’re. We’re still glad you’re here, Right, because it can still be an open and open culture, even if you don’t share. Everyone doesn’t share the same interests, or a majority of people share some some kind of niche interest and you don’t. That’s it’s going to be fine, right?

Renae: Well, and, and so do you even take that like that? Even a layer deeper is what is it about Star Trek that excites those ninety percent of the people?

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: Well, if we look at that, what Star Trek does is there’s imagination, there’s the ability to laugh at oneself because it’s freaking ridiculous a lot of the time. Um, there’s a huge questioning of norms. Um, there’s inclusivity and diversity. There’s social injustice. Like, so if you look at the, what attracts people to Star Trek is there? It’s safe to question things. It’s safe to explore. It’s safe to push boundaries, to go where no man has gone before.

Laura: Right, right.

Renae: So right.

Laura: It’s cool to be smart, to be high functioning, right? Yeah.

Renae: And if you look even at the ship, like every single person on that ship has a different culture background, backstory, um, driver.

Laura: Skill.

Renae: Set, personality, skill set. It’s very niche. You know, you just, although I did watch and I was like, why is O’Hara driving the shuttle? Um, last night on, on, on, on because I’m like, I didn’t know she had that skill to, I thought she was a communications officer, but I guess she can drive a shuttle too. Did they all.

Laura: Can do multiple things. She’s a woman of the future.

Renae: But anyway, um. Well, good. It’s like good. That’s actually really good management. You should cross train on other roles in case you get stuck on a shuttle. You need to know how to fly a shuttle. Um.

Laura: But actually it’s probably like, hey, somebody needs to learn how to drive the shuttle. And she’s like, because so she’s the only woman. She was just like, I’ll do it. I’ll do it.

Renae: So the is is a is if you look at like what? So those ten percent of people in that organization that maybe are not lit up by Star Trek, there’s probably probably something in what it means.

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: Is a connector. And so you’re thinking about it like Star Trek is an expression of a culture that’s not about Star Trek. And so it’s the like, this is what’s this is what the things that are important to us, like the how we’re treating people with dignity that we are not colonizing, that, you know, like prime directive is really important. Let’s talk about that. You know, like we’re not trying to, to take over and impose ourselves. We’d be really careful about how we offer help and if help has been asked for. Right? Like there’s, there’s like, you know, consent, like there’s all of these things that are really about like, how are we, how are we, um, showing dignity?

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: To others who are, are, may not be like us or may not be like us. Um, and, and holding that they have, they have, um, you know, autonomy and um, they have a role and that there are things that I may not understand about their culture, the way that they say things or do things, but that doesn’t mean that they’re any less valuable.

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: Right. So I think it’s that kind of like, yeah. What, what are the things that the, the, what are the base values that bring people together that allow people to express it in different ways. That makes it okay. However, that however they’re expressing it because it’s something that’s, that’s life giving and speaking to how we continue to have like good life together.

Laura: Yeah. Yeah.

Renae: It’s like very philosophical.

Laura: Yeah. Right. We zoomed way in and way out.

Renae: So, so yeah, I think that’s, it’s just been. Weighing on me a little as I’ve been reflecting and. And wanting to make sure that I’m, you know, that we’re talking about the differentiation between that protective strategy coming up versus the parts that are that really are you like, your parts are not a fake.

Laura: Right?

Renae: They really are you. And so even if people are like, whoa, where did that come from? Um, that just may not be a, that, that may be a part of somebody that you haven’t seen yet that came to the forefront as a protection or maybe that’s really, you know, where, where, where they feel the most themselves and they’re, they’re letting you know that they finally feel safe enough to show up like that.

Laura: Yeah. Yeah. And then let’s maybe talk about what people can do to. Like when because masking is somewhat unconscious. What might people be feeling that could alert them to the fact that they’re doing it to help them bring some awareness? Do you know what I mean? That they’re not becoming, that they’re not being their true self? Like, I feel like you probably have some physical sensations in the body that you might want to pay attention to.

Renae: Well, and I think it’ll fall into the flight or the freeze more than the fight. Um, so like with fight, they’re like the, the way that that shows up is a little bit more excitatory. Um, there’s, there’s, um, there’s fight, you get bigger, like fight lead you to try to be scarier in the room, right? You’re like, it’s like, I’m, I’m coming for you. Like you’re leaning and it’s a whole different thing. Whereas with masking, I would say it probably mostly to me goes into freeze, which is, um, you’re, it’s a, it’s a shut down in some respects. It’s a little bit of a dissociation, dissociation, a mini dissociation that says I’m going to have to need to disconnect from myself because something painful is about to happen. And I don’t know that I can. I can feel it. And so there’s that. There is a piece of, um, you know, fawning that comes into this where you go on autopilot. Um, and it’s, um, fawning, conscious fawning is a different strategy than autopilot. And I think that gets those two get conflated a little bit. But, um, but I think that that’s part of it, right? That it’s the. Feeling like you can’t move, feeling like you have to be still, maybe your heart beats, but you can’t let, you can’t let anybody know if you’re breathing like you usually want to be like, right. But you can’t, it needs to, you just need to shut it down and be very still and very calm. I call it, you know, like when you get a flat affect or, um, it, it did make me recall that there was a time that I was having a conflict with someone who was my supervisor in a role and I. Was driving home and she called and I said, no, I’m fine. Nope, nope. It’s fine. I don’t know, we’re all right. I don’t, I don’t really need to talk about it. And she’s like, what is that fake voice? What is that? I said, I’m I’m just not going to talk about it.

Laura: I but she was able to recognize it right away. Huh.

Renae: I have no you know, and she’s like, okay, you’re putting on this facade, you know, and like, if I dig deeper in that whole thing, there was a lot of like really screwed up dynamic in that particular relationship personally and in, in work. Um, because there’s a power dynamic in play often. And I started to recognize like the, oh, like there’s a really unhealthy power dynamic happening here. Um, and my default is to like, pull back, shut down, disconnect. Yeah. Right. Like hermit a little bit. Yeah. And put the drawbridge up. Um, and so when I, I feel like I shouldn’t say a whole lot. I shouldn’t let there be any expression on my face. Um.

Laura: Yeah, my voice.

Renae: Gets a little higher and lighter and non-threatening.

Laura: When you mentioned the fawning I it’s funny because have you ever had this, um, this has happened to me as recently as like two weeks ago where you talk to somebody and it’s definitely somebody that like, not not necessarily like you’re not consciously thinking like, I really need to impress this person. This person is in a position of power. So like, I need them to like me and think that I’m right. Like I never intentionally thinking that, but you have a conversation with somebody and you get off the phone and you’re like, I was acting weird. Why was I acting weird? And I can see now that you’re saying that that was like a little bit of wanting coming out, right? Yep. Like, why did I act like that? Right?

Renae: Like I don’t. And part of it, it’s like, that’s your brain and body telling you this person, I don’t feel fully safe with them to be able to. And to, to express myself more fully.

Laura: And to me, though, that’s okay. Less about safety though, and more just about like needing to make myself feel more important. You know what I mean? Like it like my perception of this person is that they, they needed. I mean, And I think it’s like a more of a subconscious perception, but it’s like I need to make sure that I’m looking good in front of this person. Um, to further my career or to further my, you know, position here. So I, I honestly think it was less about them and more about me. Um, but still that same kind of reaction coming out.

Renae: Yeah. Well, Leighton tease that out because what would happen if you didn’t impress them?

Laura: Uh, yeah. Well, I guess it was. I guess it would be like, you know, I wouldn’t get the role that I wanted or I wouldn’t get the thing. But I mean, I don’t think that was that person making me feel unsafe, I guess is what the clarification that I’m trying to make.

Renae: Yeah. No, and I don’t know that it has to be that person, but like the dynamic or the relationship between the two of you, right? Like that, if, if you hadn’t developed enough of a relational equity with that person to be known and to know that that it doesn’t matter how you show up, it’s not going to change how they think about you.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: Right. I mean, unless, I mean, unless you’re doing harm. That’s a whole different thing.

Laura: Right, right, right.

Renae: But it’s the is it is it safe for me to question is it safe for me to push back? Is it safe for me to maybe not be in full agreement with them? Right.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: And they may not be putting out the whole it’s not safe for, you know, my way or the highway.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: But in that dynamic, have you do you have have enough of a established relationship where it’s okay.

Laura: Well, here’s what’s interesting about that. As you’re saying, that is like, yeah, I do, I do. And so then that makes me to say like, well, then why do you feel like you have to act like that? You know what I mean? Like, I could tell this person anything because I’ve known this person for a really long time and have had a lot of frank and honest conversations and even conflicts that we’ve resolved. So I’m really glad you brought that up, because I feel like that’s a question for me to answer. Like, why don’t you feel like you can just be normal? Like, what is that?

Renae: Well, and, and that, I mean, I think that is, um, that is such a great reflection question for all of us to think about when, when I notice that I’m leaving an interaction or I’m reflecting on something, or I feel like I didn’t quite get to show up and, and say or do or be who I actually am.

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: Um, in that I had to, I had to hold things back, um, that weren’t harmful, but that, but were really true about me or about how I’m feeling or thinking about this. Like, why did I need to hold that back? Yeah. And, and what is it that, um, like, I think that’s the first step. Um, and then I think the second step does come to a little bit of a question of the, um, you know, the self trust and the trust of others. We’ve talked about that recently. Um, um, that, that concept of, you know, can I trust if, if things haven’t been consistent, if people haven’t followed through, if people haven’t been safe, how, where do you start to develop that trust? And I think even just marking it for yourself to say, oh, I’m recognizing that there are these instances where I will fall into this protective, whether it’s the fawning or I’ll shut down or I’ll feel like I have to be small or I can’t exist. Um, what are, what’s happening in those situations outside of me? And then what’s happening inside of me? Yeah. And where and then they go deeper. And you might need to you might need someone to walk through this with you. This is probably a really great time to have a trusted friend or a counselor or a therapist or somebody that you can, can help to mirror for you, but then start to unpack the where else, where else have I seen this pattern so that you can start to recognize how, what are you, what is it of you? And are, are there red flags that are showing up like maybe there are red flags that we, you know, sometimes we’re like, no, everything’s fine. And yet it’s, it’s not, we’re, we’re burying that because we are so desperate, even at a subconscious level to be in that relationship, be in that dynamic, be in that organization or group.

Laura: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really interesting.

Renae: So yeah, I think there’s a, it’s a, I think it’s a really rich conversation and does not mean we go around being jerks to people. Um, if we, if we’re being jerks, we’re having jerk like behaviors that is telling us.

Laura: That’s a symptom.

Renae: We have unmet needs, we have unmet needs. And then it’s time for us to figure out how to get those needs met in healthy ways. Um, and for some of us, getting that need met is disengaging from that dynamic and for others, um, maybe you’re in a place where you can’t, um, disengage. And so then it’s figuring out what to do, um, what’s going to be the place that you can have that full expression because it’s not going to work for you, just not to express it at all. It’ll come out in your health. It’ll come out right in like Laura bringing the worst of herself. It’s going to come out one way or the other.

Laura: Yeah. Right. Well, I mean, I think it’s it’s an interesting and fair point. Like if you’re going to, you’re, you’re always going to protect yourself. Like, no, you’re doing it. And, and just understand that that’s a place where you feel like you need to do that. And maybe you have to carry that on for a minute, but you can feel more safe in another situation. Yeah. Yeah.

Renae: Yeah. Well, we it was a nice break from our, um.

Laura: Our parts exploration.

Renae: Parts.

Laura: A different kind of parts exploration.

Renae: Kind of part.

Laura: Parts.

Renae: So. Well, thank you so much, Laura, for, uh, wrestling through this with me and talking about, um, the, the masking piece of this and, um, and for your own, I, I just really appreciate your willingness to take what we’re talking about and, and think about your own experiences and how this might be something for you to continue to explore. I think that’s such a great, um, model for, for all of us of, oh, this is something I can think about or oh, I might want to unpack that. That curiosity and openness is just really cool.

Laura: Yeah. Likewise. I appreciate that out of you too. And I thank you for bringing this up because I had never thought about it before. And so that is exciting for me to be curious about something new.

Renae: Awesome. Well thanks everybody. I guess we’ll, we’ll probably see you next time or hear you next. You know, you know what I’m trying to say. Bye.

Laura: Peace out.