Lead What Is Yours

Renae: Well. Hello, Laura. How you doing?

Laura: I’m. Well. How are you.

Laura: Doing, Renae?

Renae: You know, I’m a little tired. I’m a little hot. Heat waves happening, and I’m really excited for this conversation. Um, I think that we’ve had a lot of fun talking about the boss.

Laura: We love the boss.

Renae: We.

Renae: Um, we have giggled our way through conversations about this, um, which, you know, maybe some people are like, how what? Help me understand that. And so that’s our kind of our goal today. You know, we’ve, we’ve talked through, um, really becoming aware and trying to understand where the, the boss part of ourselves is coming from and, um, being compassionate and thoughtful about what the role has been and and why. And today a little bit more moving into well, okay, that’s great that we understand this. So what are we going to do with that? What’s what’s the point? So what has been coming up for, for you in, in this pondering, um, of this, this role of responsibility and stepping into the, the vacuum, um, when there’s, there’s not trustworthy leadership. What’s, what’s been rolling up around for you?

Laura: Yeah.

Laura: It’s really interesting, as I’ve been thinking through this, I’ve been thinking about situations where I’ve been in a place where I didn’t trust the leadership, but I also, it wasn’t my place or my responsibility or I also was not welcome to step in and lead. So it was a really good practice in, I think just sitting with that and, sitting with an unresolved situation, I guess, is how I kind of think about it and, you know, like being okay with that uncertainty and knowing that, um, it’s not, it’s not my job to fix it. And, you know, if, if at any point I can be helpful to stay gracious and say, yes, I can help if that’s what you want, but also to be to, for me, it feels like I need to be mature enough to say, um, that situation, it’s not hurting, you know, it’s not life threatening. So I, I can step out of it and, and be okay with whatever the consequences are. Um, but I will tell you that it is, that is a very intentional move for me. It does not come naturally for me to be like, okay, you know, whatever happens happens and you move ahead with the way you’re leading this project, even though I don’t think that it’s or, you know, whatever the situation, it is, my. Definitely my, my first reaction is to want to be like, oh, wait, here’s how we could do that better. And so not doing that, I think I guess in action is the, is the action is the intentional action here.

Renae: Right, right. And so what we’re talking about is different than, um, I’m just, I’m just disconnecting and not engaging. It is how do you stay engaged, but not trying to take on what belongs to someone else? Um, and that part is, is little challenging, especially if you’ve got some helper stuff that also crops up where you, you want to, you want to help or people look to you for help, or they look to you for your wisdom. And so it’s, it’s continually, um, trying to define, you know, what, what is my job? What is my job here? What’s my role? Um, and how do I, how do I determine my, are my actions really lining up with my true role? Right. I think that’s probably a question for me. Um, you know, that who steps into vacuums automatically with sometimes very, very much without thought? Is it, you know, are, is that lining up? What does that bring up for you?

Laura: Yeah, it, it actually also makes me think about like when you are in this situation, like it’s already taking some intention for you to not just rush in, but then there’s also a lot of feelings that come along with it that I feel like you, for example, like, let’s say you don’t help, and then things go south and then, you know, then it’s easy to feel like, oh, I told you so. Um, and, you know, being gracious enough to not act, even if you think that to not act like that, I think can, can be a thing that I have to be intentional about. And then another thing is not letting, um, when this happens, when you, when you can’t step in, when you shouldn’t step in, when it’s best for everyone not to this bitterness that can come up or this anger that can come up about not being able, you know, about your help being unwanted even. Mhm. Um, and so just thinking about what are the, what are the whys behind those kind of feelings? You know, am I, I’m feeling bitter. I’m feeling angry instead of just letting that simmer for me, it’s been helpful in those situations to be like, okay, well, why am I feeling bitter? Why am I feeling angry? Well, my feelings are hurt. You know, I’ve. I’m. Do I feel like people are questioning my, um, my ability to do a job or whatever those things are. Like I can go a couple levels deeper and see, well, okay, well, that’s why I’m feeling that way and that’s okay, but I don’t have to take that out on anyone else around me. I can work through that on my own.

Renae: Yeah. And I think you just named something really important there too, is the. I think with when we know it’s the boss coming up really, really loudly in, in the situation, um, it’s not about identity. Um, of what are people going to think of me? It is, I need to control this because I don’t feel safe.

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: Right. Like it is it this is going to. It’s not just even. Because I think it’s easier to say, you know, not not really my problem, not my circus, not my monkeys. I can step away when it’s not our job, but when it affects us or it is our job. Or someone saying like, you have some level of, of responsibility in this. That’s much harder.

Laura: Right. Yeah, I agree.

Laura: Because I’ve been I’m sure you have to you’ve been in situations where it was best for you to step out of it, but you could see that there’s a train wreck coming and you really want to, you really want to step in and prevent that from happening. But you kind of just have to let you know when it’s a lower stakes situation. I think it’s sometimes it’s best for you just to let that happen. And that’s, that feels unsafe, right? That things are going to go south and you’re not trying to do anything about it or you feel like that.

Renae: Well, I think that’s where communication with ourselves and with others really starts to become important. Like when, when we think about, um, you know, ways in the, in the past that maybe we have defaulted and not been intentional about how we’re. Communicating what we want to do, what we plan to do, what we’re seeing. Um, you know, that’s when we, we can get to the move over or like I told, you know, I told you I was going to go this way. Um, see how easy that came out of my mouth. Um. But the becomes that it just as you were talking about like this introspection, the pausing and where, you know, what’s, what’s deeply in at the bottom of this, at the core of this, what is this about? Um, and so you know, there’s the fact of what is my role? And then there’s the deeper level of, okay, am I having feelings about what my real role is? Right? And so we wrestle with that. And then when if we determine that it’s not our role, and we feel like if I don’t insert myself, something bad is going to happen, things are going to go sideways. It’s going to be painful. Um, what, what are our options for how we approach this? And I think that for me, it’s the, it, it takes the intention of asking for consent.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: And that’s harder.

Laura: Yeah. I think too, it’s, it’s, it reminds me of parenting a little bit too, where you can’t just do everything for your kid. Like they just have to make their own mistakes. And it can be a really excruciating to witness, but you’re not doing them any favors by just clearing their path and doing everything for them. And it’s the same thing when you’re working with other people and you know that what they’re doing, you know, like maybe, you know, from your own wisdom and experience that what they’re doing isn’t the most optimal approach. Like sometimes for their own growth, you need to let that happen. You need to let them see and do their own experimentation. And that can be hard.

Renae: Yeah. Well, it reminds me even, um, I was attending a, um, volunteer training at a church plant years ago, and the guy who was leading it says. This is really, really important. You need to ask people to, if you can ask them a question. And I’m like, what? He’s like, like to everybody, like, he’s like, this is so important. You need to get an okay before you ask question. And he, he, he had worked at Apple. He had worked in Apple, um, whatever their store helper kiosk thing was. And he said that that was like company rule is you people, if they’re not open to you asking the question, then you’re trying to, you’re trying to force and you’re not going to collaborate, you’re not going to, to get to the root of the problem. If they’re defensive and they don’t want your help in that way.

Laura: Right.

Renae: And that I it, you know, I wrestled with that and wrestled with that. And then I’ve come to the conclusion that, oh my gosh, yes, it absolutely. And so in depending on my, my level of, of emotional depth with people, you know, like the track record, um, I will, I will often say, can I give you a, some feedback or are you okay with me? You know, um, I have, I have a question. Is it okay if I ask, um, I had some, I had a thought, is it okay if I bring that up and, and I think that it’s for some people, they’re like, what? Why would you put that, that extra extra effort into it? And I think what you’re, what we’re talking about is that the, like the boss forces as default because and it’s not for, for ill intent. It’s that. Right? I’m trying to make sure we get to where we, we’re supposed to be go without any of us going, getting damaged. Right. So it’s coming from a good place. But if we’re if we’re doing that by, um, not paying attention to the dignity of other people or we’re not preserving that, they have ownership of their own parts, that people have autonomy. It, we’re, we’re dehumanizing, it’s a disservice. And then, then all of a sudden everyone in that situation becomes an object instead of a person.

Laura: Right? Yeah. The other thing I like about asking someone if they’re okay with a question or whatever is I feel like, I don’t know if you’re like this, but I hate surprises. I hate feeling blindsided. I, I don’t like, like having to like, think on my feet. And so I feel like if you, when you say like, can I ask you a question? Like, now I’m going to be prepared for you to ask me a question, even if it’s something I don’t want to answer. But at least that’s, it’s gives it that much more softness gives me that much more time to like, I don’t want to say brace myself, but kind of to be ready for that.

Renae: Well, and I think it’s you. Yeah. You just name something like, we’re, we’re, we, we like to have our nervous systems get a heads up so that we can prepare ourselves. And it turns out probably a lot of other people do too. Right. And so, um, when, when we take that time, um, we are creating a container like that is such a beautiful way of creating actually a boundary. That’s that in, in that offer of, of it’s an offer versus an imposition.

Laura: Yeah. Right, right. And it feels like a little bit more of like a take or leave kind of thing that that person has more autonomy in whether they can choose to accept your feedback or say thanks anyway.

Renae: Right. And, and, and so then the, the role for, um, a person whose boss is feeling really strong in that situation is being okay if they say no. Right. Yeah. And so that’s, I think that’s the, the work of this, of saying, you know, to go back to that, the question at the top of this conversation of our role. Right. And so if we’re making this offer, if we are saying, hey, I’ve seen something I’d like to to share or I have a question, is it okay? It needs to be okay if they say no. Um, and they’re, that’s protecting their autonomy, autonomy, but also our autonomy, right? That we’re not trying to, you know, in. Master, get in there. Um, uh, we’re not, we’re not, we’re, we’re naming the, the reality of the stakes and that, um, we may only have a piece of it and that needs to be okay, that it’s our piece. And so figuring out what, where our boundaries are on that. And that when I say boundary, it’s like, you know, it’s not, um, holding a limit for someone else. It’s holding a limit for ourselves.

Laura: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah, I like that.

Renae: So when, when we’re doing that and I’m thinking about, um. Is there relief for you when you think about, I mean, I know there’s, there’s work for when that boss is coming out strong to all of this, you know, introspection and um, interception And, um, awareness of our own nervous systems and our own thought patterns and our own histories. Uh, that takes a lot of work, you know, and then you bring in this other dynamic of other people and, and being thoughtful about how we’re approaching like that. That does take a lot of energy. Is there a trade off, though, when we’re not carrying things that aren’t ours? Is that enough of a is that feel like a good enough of an exchange? Um, if if what is ours is our is ourselves and maybe not the project or the situation.

Laura: Yeah. I think also you’re, you’re doing work now so that you can have additional future peace. Honestly, I feel like your interpersonal relationships are going to be better when you I mean, this is obvious, but also why aren’t we all doing it all the time when we are thinking right now about how we are interacting with other people and doing it in a way that makes them feel their best. Then that is, it’s so helpful to our future selves because that’s how we build trust with people. That’s how we deepen relationships with people. And so doing this work that, to your point, does drain tons of my energy, but it is really setting up, you know, next week’s Laura, to be able to even more naturally step into a boss role because now everyone trusts me and, and knows me well.

Renae: Right. Well, and, and knows that, um, you’ll, you’ll be more consistent, um, understands the patterns. Um, and, and truthfully, the, yeah, I love the idea that you just, you know, said of like your, your front loading the work, um, in some respects by doing it like doing this, this, this piece, this internal peace to prepare yourself so that you’re going to be supportive. Um, and that helps on so many different levels. And it’s not, it’s not a one and done, but it does, it does accumulate like it’s a cumulative effect that when you don’t lose the work from the week before.

Laura: Right.

Renae: Right. So it continues to build and then certain muscles, it, it’s easier to access, it’s easier to, um, to develop that, that memory of, oh, I can do this, I can trust myself, I can trust that it’s going to be okay. Um, I’ve experienced this in these little pieces over and over again. So that allows me further and further trust to be extended that I don’t, I don’t have to take responsibility for the whole outcome. And I, I know I have done my part with care while still honoring everyone else’s autonomy and, and dignity.

Laura: Yeah. Right. And, and I just a further point. The more that we do this, the easier it becomes, the more natural it becomes to do this. So it’s less about fighting the boss urge and more about understanding and working with the boss to, um, to have a more peaceful situation.

Renae: Yeah. So that that piece of I’m a boss of myself and that sometimes that’s enough of a job.

Laura: Mhm. Yeah. Really.

Renae: So, um, you know, as we’re, as we’re closing out this, this series, I think this brings us to, um, the opportunity to, to say, well, what, you know, what, what can we distill all of this down into, um, and, and we’ve talked about this before of, you know, what, what’s the point? So, um, I, we’re going to invite you listeners, uh, to, to join us as we do this to, um, to think of a current situation that you’re in and start to sort it out for yourself. Um, and look at, um, what’s yours, um, what’s shared, what is someone else’s and what is outside of your control. And um, just thinking of it every time I think about sorting laundry, right. It is the, and it’s like, these are the clothes that need to be washed this way. These are the clothes that need to be washed this way. These need these certain treatments, right. And so each of them goes into their container because, um, they, That’s what that set of circumstances or, or things are, uh, need to be. I don’t have to have feelings about that. I’m just sorting.

Laura: Right, right. You just don’t wash reds with whites and. Right. That’s just it. That’s just facts of life. Right.

Renae: And and so it’s it, we take that feeling piece out of it. And then after we’re done, you know, and we might have to do a, a reminder to ourselves of like, I don’t need to feel away about this. I’m just going to take a snapshot of the, of the reality here. Um, and, and realize where my stakes actually need to be. Where, where is that? And then, uh, we don’t talk about some experiments that people can, can take.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, I feel like people can, when you find yourself wanting to step in and help, maybe you would ask first, Maybe if you um, are going to going to delegate to someone else, you can do that without checking in every five minutes to see how they’re doing the job. Just trust that they might do the job. And then I think a big one that I see is funny. I see this come up actually in my husband, um, God bless him. Uh, if you are asking someone to do a thing, don’t have this expectation that they’re going to do it exactly the way that you would do it and just let it get done however it needs to get done.

Renae: Yeah.

Renae: Yeah, yeah. Um, that was my, my husband and I went to couples therapy. It was like, I think two years into our marriage. Um, and. Chores were actually like right in the center of a big part of our conflict. I grew up in a household where everyone had chores and you did them before you did fun. And that was the that was the deal. And he grew up in a household where he never had a single chore. Um, and so there were ways of learning how to do things and patterning that, that were in conflict there. And the therapist said to me, um, well, what’s the problem if if he does whatever. And I was like, because he’s not doing it right. She’s like, mhm. Yeah. No, if he does it, he does it.

Renae: He does it. It’s done. Yeah. Isn’t it funny how we can have a whole separate conversation about this, but like, those are the things that get you tripped up in your in your intimate relationship. It’s not like crazy big stuff. Like you expect it’s going to be. It’s like, are you picking up, um.

Laura: Dishes that somebody leaves on the coffee table?

Renae: I literally I literally had this. My husband and I have been married for over twenty eight years. And, uh, a few weeks ago we moved to a new place together. It’s the first time that we’ve lived just the two of us for over sixteen years. Wow. Um, and so that, you know, that changes the dynamic, right? There’s like it, um, it a lot. And, and I work from home. And so, um, in order for me to be able to do that, like stuff needs to be picked up so that I can spend my time working and not doing the house stuff while I’m supposed to be working. Um, and my husband is not, um, really strong in the pick up after himself as we, as we talked about before. Um, but I made a decision like the, the first week we were here, like I was getting kind of irritated About it. And I stopped and I said. I’m not going to be irritated about this anymore. We are. He’s going to do stuff and I’m going to do stuff and I’m going to stop keeping score. And I’m much happier.

Laura: Yeah, I know sometimes I can feel like a real relief. Right?

Renae: Right. Um, and so I know we’ve like veered a little bit from this, but also not because if we are a person who, um, you know, like we want things a certain way, we, we feel like things aren’t complete unless it’s done so that that boss part can like really rear its head and say, yeah, this isn’t, you know, it’s got to be done this way or you need to. And for that, that back and forth and even that autonomy, especially in a, in a lateral relationship, whether you don’t want to introduce a power dynamic. Mhm. Um, it becomes even more important to say, wait, what? What is mine? Right. Like sometimes when we’re the in charge person for something that’s, that’s been our role, we know very clearly what’s ours and what’s someone else’s. Um, but a lot of times what we’re talking about is that might not be clear. So we need to set that, that limit. Right. So, um, well, if you have um, enjoyed this conversation, we have, uh, a good little micro journey that gives you a framework for that, that sorting, um, working on that experiment. And of course, our twenty one day, um, companion practice to, to help you really hone in on some of these skills. So, um, any last thoughts about the boss before we put the boss to bed for now?

Laura: I mean, the boss, let’s not forget the helpfulness and the usefulness of the boss, and how good the boss can be at getting you ahead of the game. Yeah. Um, but also, like everyone it’s got needs to be in balance.

Renae: Well, thank you Laura. Thank you for bringing, um, all of yourself to the conversation. Um, I’ve enjoyed how we’ve been giggling through this one for sure.

Laura: Absolutely. Great to be here.