You Don’t Have to Sit at Every Table: Curiosity, Capacity, and Choice

Renae: I was thinking today, so I, um. For trauma wise, I get a lot of applications for the summit and, and now like a lot and, and now I can turn down a lot more people because I’m getting so many, which is great. Um, and so I, somebody, um, applied and she said a lot of the right things. And I thought, you know, I’ll give it a shot and, and, um. She went through the agreement and then wrote me this really long email and said, well, I don’t see any speaker compensation in here. Is it? Are you seriously saying you aren’t going to compensate the speakers? And then was, um, you know, talked about. Can you give me, uh, testimonials from other speakers that this is like they’ve benefited from collaborating and, and all of that and then said, because it’s such a significant time commitment. And I was like, I would like to know what about this summit you think is a significant time commitment because it is not. And secondly, you’re not the right like, I have to figure out a nice way to say, you know what I can tell right now? This is not the right fit because it’s about the movement. It is not about making money.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, like, if, if you if you have this many concerns, then this probably isn’t the opportunity for you. Like, why wouldn’t you like, if that were me, I’d, I’d already be like, oh okay. Never mind. You know what I mean? Like, if those were my concerns and this was the opportunity. I’d be like, ah, it’s probably not a good fit for me. Instead of like, writing back, like, are you serious?

Renae: Yeah. So. Yeah. I yeah, it’s very, very um, so that was it just goes along with the conversation I was having yesterday because we’re both working in, you know, direct service spaces, but also we do the mezzo and the macro work. And so it’s it’s not just meeting the need of the one in front of us is supporting the people who are meeting the need of the one in front of them, and then also doing systems work so that hopefully upstreaming so that there’s less people who are having these needs and doing all that simultaneously. And it’s it’s a little bit, um, I was reflecting yesterday that what’s what continues to almost amaze me is that people don’t. I. People don’t carry a big vision with them. A lot of the times, and that’s bizarre to me. I don’t know how to live without having a. But this is the big vision.

Laura: Are they detail people?

Renae: Maybe it’s, um, maybe it’s some, some or detail people and it makes sense. I get if you, if you um. Because I hear from people, it’s just so overwhelming. I’m just one person. What can I possibly do? And I’m like, oh, there’s so much you can do.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: And but they. But being able to see how all the parts work together to make a thing happen feels very overwhelming. And I think that’s part of why, like, for instance, uh, if we went from, like, a yoga flow, like, you know, as the instructor, even if things change during the class, you know, what your intention is going through and you know where things are going and why we’re working on this one little part. Because in three weeks, we’re going to do this. Um, and so you’re like, you’re breaking it into manageable moments for people to experience the whole thing. And, um, you know, I think back to when I was first teaching yoga and having all the pieces of paper on the floor by my mat so that I could remember what I was going to do. Right.

Laura: Yes.

Renae: And we we approach it with a certain type of like, there’s a formula and there’s a flow and all these types of things. And then when we see Body it. We may not spend the same amount of time thinking through each thing, because it’s in bodied and we and we can see how everything is pointing to a larger whole. Right. And so take that kind of concept. And then my brain is thinking about the whole all of the time. Right. Like I can tell you in a moment if someone’s like this or this, I said, well, okay, here’s this system issue, here’s this issue, here’s this issue, here’s issue, you know, and and see those patterns. And I guess that’s part of my brain. That’s part of my own lovely neurodivergent brain. But also there’s um. Um, my youngest said to me one day, why does everything have to be about God? And I was like, well, because everything is about God. I don’t understand your question. So this is where I’m at is I’ve. It’s I’m, um. You know, you and I have talked before about like, what the is the goal is the goal to make the world a better place. And it is. Even if that’s not I mean, it is for me and it is for you. Even if that’s not the way that you would frame it.

Laura: Maybe people feel overwhelmed at like. And I think that’s part of it for me too, where if I think about, like, making the world a better place, like the world is huge. But when I think about, like, my sphere of influence, I feel confident about influencing it.

Renae: Right. And I think there’s, um, so I think it’s just like the lenses in which I view because of how my brain is, where the interconnectedness is, um, is very visible. I’ve only seen it. I’ve seen it. Um, there have been a couple of books that I have read that have the all science fiction, um, that have done a really good job of articulating what it feels like and looks like to be in my brain and see the connections of things. And it is so. And then, of course, I’m reading this when I’m younger and I’m like, oh, people see things like this. And now as I’m older, I’m like, people do not see things like this. That’s just my weird, wacky brain. Um, because it doesn’t. To me, it doesn’t. The the the mass of it doesn’t feel overwhelming. The only thing that feels overwhelming is time. I feel like time is moving very, very quickly.

Laura: Yeah. Yes, yes.

Renae: Right.

Laura: I do think that it’s a challenge. It’s a challenge inherent with every communication is this idea that people don’t see things the way that you do. And, I mean, it just came up for me at work the other day where someone we were showing someone an example of how how some creative, how a creative concept might look. And the designer had just pulled in what we would call swipe right. So it was like a picture of Bill Murray and like a stylized way. And we were saying that this is what it could look like. And the person was like, well, we couldn’t use a picture of Bill Murray. And I mean, in in her defense, like we hadn’t done the greatest job of setting up that this isn’t this wasn’t real. This was just like to show a style. But I think sometimes when you a when you work with something every day, you already know that and you forget that everyone else doesn’t and be just like you’re saying, like some people are very literal and it’s it’s the challenge is on you as a communicator to communicate to the communicate, um, to frame it in a reference that they will understand. Right. So to bring it to a really literal place, if that’s for that example.

Renae: Mm. Right? Right. Well.

Laura: But it’s like it’s almost like you have to be hyper vigilant about doing that.

Renae: And. So I, I think that this is actually a really important thing to highlight. And my husband and I have been married for twenty seven years, and we find the thing we actually fight about is communication. I am a big fan of specificity of language, please. Um, it’s the I forgot what movie it is. I think it’s like the, the The giver or something like that. And that’s what they in the emotions are not a big deal. Like they don’t like emotions are something to be avoided. And the culture is, you know, be very direct and clear with your language. So you hear specificity of language, please. And I will say that to people and my husband, because the more I learned, the more things a simple sentence could mean. And so I need I need more context. I need more preparation, I need to I, I would need in that situation. If I was a person in your client in the chair, I would need you to show me. Three different pictures of three different people with that style so I could see that. What you were talking about was the style, not the picture. But I would need that kind of context. And there is a piece of it where my husband’s like, it’s just so exhausting sometimes to. Make sure that I’m communicating in a way that you understand. And it’s not because my scope is narrow, it’s because it’s actually freaking broad. Right? It could mean so many different things. And again, I know that’s I now know that this is part of my neurodivergence. But also. Um, one thing I have said to him is if we have not been spending a lot of time together. You will fall back on shorthand that is no longer where my where I’m at or where you’re at. And I think we do this a lot. I think I think this we do this with, um, with culture. I think we do this with, with assuming that there’s an understanding, assuming that there’s a shared experience, shared lived experience. And I think that, um, when we get into spaces where we’re driven more by fear that and we default to shorthand, um, we don’t feel like we have enough energy for that hypervigilance to pay attention, to make sure that we’re communicating well, that we’re understood. And and we also, when we’re in a fear space, we tend to Who is we desperately in our deepest places, want closeness and safety from people, and generally we are terrified of it at the same time because that fear is saying people aren’t safe. And like in general, like I have scarcity, people are out to get me, the world’s out to get me whatever thing happens to be. I know those are like super drastic, extreme versions of it, but we lose proximity. And I think that’s the the way that we understand other people’s experiences is through proximity.

Laura: Right. Well, yeah. I mean, add to all of those deep seated fears. This person doesn’t understand me. So you feel that is an isolating feeling. Nobody gets me.

Renae: And so in that, like even in that vein of Um, how the how the online knowledge worker life has changed. Right. So knowledge worker being people who know stuff or than sharing that with the world and that’s their job. And so I have things that I’m a quote unquote expert in, um, or things that I know a lot about or things I’m very excited to share. Um, and as I’m, as I’m communicating that it there’s a, um, there is a burden, a responsibility on me to be very thoughtful about knowing who it is I’m speaking to and am I am I speaking to their experience, or am I assuming my experiences? Everyone else’s? And I think that’s that part is hard. Um, because that’s not how the dissemination of information has historically not been thinking about the audience.

Laura: And then I think also sometimes, as much as you are trying, you still don’t even know what you don’t know. Like I was, I was watching this. There was a couple doing a reaction video and they obviously had not grown up. They had grown up in a city, is my assumption, because they were reacting to this Dixie chicks song that said that someone was in the FFA and Four-h, and they didn’t know what those things were. I don’t know if you know what those things are, but if you’ve grown up in the country, they’re you they’re ubiquitous, right? Like for each being like, I don’t know, like it’s a club for kind of like farming and FFA, Future Farmers of America. And it just really struck me as just kind of interesting and funny. And I was like, oh, of course they wouldn’t know what those are. Like, you wouldn’t have those in the middle of a city, but it’s not something I would ever have thought about.

Renae: Yep. Yep. Right. Mhm. Right?

Laura: Do you know what I mean? I mean, and that’s just the smallest example that could, I’m sure, does scale up to big things that we don’t realize other people don’t know about.

Renae: Absolutely. Well, and it’s the. So I think there’s a couple of things here. It’s the, the we are not well versed in collaboration because, uh, both our workplaces and our academia is built on a competitive model where there are, there are finite resources and you have to compete. Um, so even like those classrooms that are like, we, you know, it’s the weighted thing and you’re competing to see if you can get an A or not with other people versus your anyway. That’s a whole other thing. Grades. Grades in college are such crap. Anyway, um, and, um, I just sort of wish college was pass fail. I really just in. And that part of fail is. Did you really set the student up for success? I don’t know, I wish all of school was pass fail anyway. Backing up.

Laura: There’s a lot we can talk about on education.

Renae: But the but if you think about like that, then you’re competing for promotions. You’re competing for resources and and money and positions and all kinds of different things in the workplace. So like you’re trained to compete, not collaborate.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: And even in go ahead.

Laura: And well, in a virtual environment, also, you know, when I worked in an office with other creatives, you were talking to people just on a personal level, and then someone might wander by your by your computer and be like, oh, what are you working on? And then you would just get these little collaborations that would happen that would make your work better, or you would make theirs better. And that never happens in a virtual environment because you’re only intentionally meeting. And it’s very transactional. And for the most part, it feels like a waste of time when we’re doing a lot of small talk. And I mean, and I’m the biggest offender. Like, I don’t want we have a meeting. There’s ten people on it. Like, I don’t want to sit around in small talk. Like if it’s a one on one meeting, I’m more apt to do that. But, um, yeah. So you don’t really have personal connections, and you certainly aren’t doing collaboration at the level that you did when you were all in an office space together.

Renae: Yep. Absolutely. Unless it’s intentional. And so I will say that, um, there there is a reason that I succeeded in having master’s level interns that I never met in person doing a field internships. And it’s because I did create there was a structure to every meeting. And the first part of the meeting and it’s a big chunk, is about relationship.

Laura: Yeah. Mhm.

Renae: Because if we don’t feel safe, if we don’t understand each other’s perspectives, if we there’s all sorts of ways that we can spend time with each other, um, with intention. That is just about humaning. Well, and that that lets us feel enough felt safe to be able to. What if we did this like the the I think one of my main skills as a leader and as a supervisor field supervisor is, um, making it very safe for people to fail. I want to create the environment in which people know that they can try whatever is come to mind and that it’s done. It’s collaborative so that nobody is doing anything on their on their own, which, because we need it, needs to be multi-voiced. And so that’s a, that’s a huge value. Um, and that’s not something I’ve always done because I have uh, because of my history and my experience, I’ve been so ruggedly independent until I realized that independence was harmful. Independence is harmful. And that sounds so like what? Isn’t that our.

Laura: Mhm. Well, I think it’s a balance. I don’t think all independence is harmful, but when you are doing it at the expense of collaborating with other people and letting other people help you, then. Yeah, it’s it is very harmful.

Renae: Well, let me let me posit this. I think autonomy is required. I think that is autonomy is different than independence, because independence says, I can do all this on my own, and not a single one of us can do it on our own. And so I would say the interdependence of saying I’m an autonomous human who has my I, my own person. I’m not codependent. There’s a whole different piece of that. Um, I’m the same person when I show up in this space as I show up in this space, because I am, I am me. And because I am so grounded in being who I am, I’m. I am free to be curious and open and and humble and thoughtful in my interactions with other people. Because I don’t need to respond in fear because they can’t. No one can steal me from me. And so I think that’s the piece where I that that that collaboration piece, um, when we’re, when we’re doing the relational part, we’re not just learning about the other person, we’re actually learning about ourselves as well. If we have time, if we’ve created the time to reflect and ponder and say, huh, why did that bother me so much? Or why did that come up like that? Or what was that about? Um, and, and understand what might be driving it or what parts of us are showing up in that space.

Laura: Yes, definitely.

Renae: Does that make sense?

Laura: I think the more that you can take time to understand your own reactions, the more sympathy or empathy I don’t know. You tell me which one it is that you can have for other people in their reactions, and the more patients also that you can bring to those when they’re disruptive, let’s say.

Renae: well and that and to come back to our waste of time conversation from a few episodes ago that there is a. What a what makes us feel what drives that concept of waste of time would come from a scarcity space, right? I’m scared.

Laura: Right.

Renae: If I don’t get this task done, I’m going to get in trouble. I’m going to lose my job. I’m going to be homeless or whatever the thing happens to be like. It’s not just wasting time. Um, it’s not just it’s it’s there’s a deeper meaning underneath it. And so it it really does it really does take a concerted effort to regulate ourselves and then create spaces where other people. can know that they can regulate or co-regulate, um, so that they can bring themselves to the space.

Laura: I know it always comes back to this, doesn’t it? Our own taking responsibility for our own, um, mental health?

Renae: Yeah, yeah.

Laura: Yes, because we deserve it. But also it’s.

Renae: Yes.

Laura: I think it’s part of our service to the world.

Renae: Yeah. So, I mean, we can follow that thread and say that part of making the world a better place is to take care of ourselves, because what we’re bringing into this, it’s not about that. We can’t be who we are in the spaces. I want to be very, very clear. Your feelings are valid. Your emotions are valid. Your actions attached to those emotions may be destructive and may not be appropriate. So those are two different things. Um, how but how we show up in the world is there’s that that quote from the Roy, excuse me, the Roy Institute that says how I am creates an atmosphere in others and they then make that mean something about themselves.

Laura: That’s interesting.

Renae: And right. And so there’s two there’s two responsibilities there. There’s two burdens there. That how I am creates a it creates an atmosphere. And, and people are like, well, I’m not responsible for other people’s feelings. You’re responsible for the atmosphere that you create.

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: Right.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: And then I’m responsible for, um, seeking support to check my scripts of what the meaning is. Right.

Laura: Yes. Yeah.

Renae: How do you do that?

Laura: How do I check my scripts?

Renae: Mhm.

Laura: I think it starts with what you were mentioning before. Like, anytime something is, like, triggering to me, something causes a strong emotion in me. Or if I notice myself, um, having a behavior like, for example, um, when I was drinking too much. I mean, like, that was certainly an indication that all was not well. And so, um, it’s looking at those kinds of stuff and even going one step back from that, it is learning how to have the space to notice that and not just be stuck in like a feedback loop. That just makes it worse and worse. Like, what are you doing to interrupt that pattern to notice things? And anyway, then when I do notice some. Then a lot of times I do journaling, exercise and honestly, I was just this week relistening to um, no bad parts. And that really, um, sent me on a journey of just being really aware of parts and you know who’s saying what in there? And, um, how I could work with all of those individual parts and also bring I mean, like, I think a major premise of the book is that you, as your true self are bringing compassion and love to each of those parts, even the ones that are causing, you know, disruptive behavior or feelings inside of you. And and then how that translates to your attitude towards other people in the world. So I have been really practicing that. Um, recently of just like really refining, I guess I would say like the things that I’m like, okay, like that’s still a thing that’s bothering me, that’s getting under my skin. Like, could I what could I do? How could I listen to that part better and bring compassion to that? And so it was nice for me to revisit that and then go to my parts, you know, in meditation this week and last week just to be like, you know, thanks for your protection. You know, like, how can we partner together to, to move forward instead of just getting frustrated about falling into the same old patterns?

Renae: absolutely. And I love the, the part, the part I love is you speaking about The role of the parts. Sometimes I think when people think about the concept of regulation, they think that it means that you’re calm or that you’re everything’s fine or it’s even keel. And we have we have these different parts of us that that emerge for to, to meet a need that, that we’re experiencing. Um, and often it’s because, um, for, for whatever part of our history, um, there’s, we don’t have a different strategy. That’s the strategy that emerges. And so for people who are like, oh, I don’t know about parts, that sounds really weird. Like, we could even say it’s just your strategies. It’s your strategy for how you’re, um, going to address a need that’s in front of you. And those those are written with experience. The strategies are written with experience. Those parts are built based on experience and and your your brain and body have done such a good job of protecting you throughout the years and reading patterns and saying, oh, when I feel like this, when I see this, when I hear this, I’m going to get hurt. Therefore, this is my strategy for how I’m going to respond. And it’s not a cognitive, it’s more of a reaction. It’s not cognitive. And so the, the the practice of creating reflection spaces for reflection spaces for pondering spaces for being curious to say, let me think about what just happened there. Why did I do that? Why am I feeling this way? Um, and am I? Am I satisfied for for the way that my I showed up for myself That that strategy to that part really meet that need in a way that was life giving, that was sustainable, that was helpful for the long term. And if not, what else could I do? And and so building in that reflection piece. So you had mentioned journaling. And I think that even conversations, um, building in spaces to just have the people that we have conversations with to say, I’m curious about this or what do you see or have noticing this about myself, can we talk through it? So whether that’s in a therapy or whether that’s a friend or a support group or whatever it happens to be, but creating that, like there is a time and place and we’re going to reflect, um, and that that is part of how I run business meetings, uh, which is just wild. There is a reflection point like we do our relationship check ins, and then we there’s a part where we clear the table. We like if there if there is stuff going on between members here, sitting here, we need to clear it out before we do any work together or talk about, hey, I’m noticing this pattern and it does not seem healthy. What can we do? And that’s just part of how we do things. And if we’re doing that regularly and people know that there’s an avenue for it or we’ve set up those practices, there’s less fear going in. And then we’re building those muscles of yes, we stop and and pause and and reflect. Um.

Laura: I think what you said about being curious is really important part of that too. And being curious is different than being judgmental about oh, how I acted or, you know, I mean, you might be frustrated with it, but it’s not it’s not the productive for you. I mean, that’s keeping you in that same feedback loop, right? You act away, you get mad and frustrated about it, then you act away, and then you get worse. And then then you act that way because it’s comforting to you and, you know, it just repeats itself. So by getting curious, you’re able to, um, almost, I guess, break that, break that feedback loop and just ask why that thing would happen. And then you’re also able to validate that either that person externally or that part internally to say, oh, well, yeah, of course that would be upsetting if that’s if that’s your perspective. Yeah. That does sound like that’s something that would make you angry or make you upset, you know, like then you can have more of a, an open perspective towards it when you start with curiosity.

Renae: Yeah. And I have a friend who, um, there’s there’s a couple of phrases that I will use in my, um, conversations. There’s a well, let me back up. There’s a t shirt that I need to make for myself that I saw that says, I’m not judging you, but I am analyzing your behavior. And it is such a good shirt for me because I will I will have one of two responses. Um, when I’m when I’m like, huh? Um, and so people can’t see this, but I have, I have cocked my head to the side and went, huh? And that is my that’s my oh, that’s interesting or that’s fascinating. And, um, I have a friend who’s like, Will you use one when you’re when you’re like, think it’s interesting and one when you think people’s wrong.

Laura: That’s a good shirt for you. That’s funny.

Renae: I was like, oh, that’s that cracks me up. Um, so, uh, but so we’ll trade the meme back and forth because, um, Spock says fascinating all the time. And so we’ll send that back and forth on our, on our text chain. But this it is, it is a, huh. Like, let me just let me just ponder this for a moment. Let me and then let me check my assumptions about it. And, and and it’s that curiosity. Right. And if you’re if you are. That and fear do not live in the same space.

Laura: Oh. Yeah. I would say that’s true. Um, I on a somewhat related, when you’re talking about communication between spouses, our thing that we, um, have struggled with in the past, although I think we’re better at it now. But, you know, there are some people that don’t say exactly what they mean. Like, they might they might be trying to save your feelings or they they might be conflict avoidant, I don’t know. Uh, so some people don’t say exactly what they mean. There’s meaning under their words. And then I, I just say what I mean because that’s just how I’m wired to be. And then my husband is always looking for, what does that person really mean when they say that thing? And so he’s always going a level deeper. And often when it is a person that communicates like that, he’s often right about that person. But for a long time he was trying to read into everything that I said, and I finally just had to be like, I swear I have no ulterior motives when I say a thing, you can just assume that it means exactly what it is. And then I, for my part, had to start maybe reading into a little bit of his like silence is a is an indicator that I know now that maybe things aren’t all as as he would like them to be. But that was a learning curve, you know, of. Like, I’m straightforward and maybe he’s pulling back of what he’s really saying. Um, and just meeting in the middle of that.

Renae: Well and there’s um I do not enjoy having my words rewritten. Um where there where someone might say well you’re telling me and I’m like I did not say that. I in fact I am fully confident, fully confident and competent. And when it comes to being able to say things like, that is the stupidest thing I ever heard of, you idiot. I don’t say those words. It would. It actually would be like. It feels so gross to even say that as an example, because that’s not how I think of people anymore. Um, but when people translate my English into things like that, um, I get very frustrated because I’m, I’m like, I didn’t I literally didn’t say that. Well, that’s what I heard. Okay.

Laura: Interesting.

Renae: So let’s back up. Let’s back up. Specificity of language, please. This is this is what I meant. In fact, um, and I’ve had to with my husband every once in a while, I’ll be like. I am not the ghost of so and So, which is a previous relationship and I this is that The I’m not owning that part. So I’ve what I ask for. And what I have to do often is to give a precursor and say. I’m going to say something that’s difficult. We’ve talked about this before. I’m going to say something that’s challenging. So I want you to know that going in that I know that this might be hurtful if you don’t let me finish. Um, so, you know, it’s that part of it or even the, um. I need to vent versus I need help.

Laura: Um. Aha. Yeah. Yes, yes. That is one that comes up a lot too. Uh, to the point where I’ve started being like, do you do you need solutions to this, or do you just need to tell me about it? Because I do always want to give solutions.

Renae: Mhm.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: Mhm.

Laura: Yeah. The other thing too, is I don’t love, um, I don’t mind conflict when it needs to be resolved, because I know, honestly that it’s more efficient to resolve it when it’s right here. Like interpersonal conflict. But if someone else is having, like, some anger or some, you know, railing about something, I do find that kind of uncomfortable because I just don’t love negativity. But, um, it one of the things that I have learned to do because my husband, like, he needs to vent stuff like he has, um, his Enneagram type has anger as a, an undercurrent. And so I have learned to just, like, hold space for that negativity and like, that is how I can, um, do an act of service for him. I guess, you know.

Renae: Can you remind me what his number is.

Laura: He’s a one.

Renae: I was literally I was like it sounds like a one because his negativity is. Here we go. Because his negativity is, is um his justice streak. What he’s saying what his, his whole negativity is about. This is not right. This is not fair. It shouldn’t be this way.

Laura: Right. Things need to be right. Um hum.

Renae: Right. And so it’s it. It is his protest against injustice. And it sounds it sounds negative because it is a negative situation.

Laura: True. I mean, he’s not he’s not wrong about what he’s saying.

Renae: Right. And then and then you’re you’re where you’re at in, in the Enneagram, you’re like, everything’s fine, everything’s great.

Laura: Everything’s great. Let’s have fun, guys.

Renae: Like, this does not sound like party talk. Like you are harsh in my. I say this to people all the time, um, especially kids, because I. I will tell kids truth, man. Like I will anyway. Um, and so I’ll say, I don’t mean to harsh your vibe, but. I know I’m harshing your vibe. I say this all the time, and I think they probably don’t often understand what it is I’m saying, but I reckon I recognize that it’s I’m like, you know, buzzkill. And I was thinking about, like, even a, I was doing a training and, um, yesterday, um, I was doing a training and I had been flown up for this, you know, full day retreat with staff. And it was this great trauma training. We were having a great time. And it was we’re finishing up a break. And the, um, executive director started playing catch in the room with the people. And there was, you know, I’m like, we are coming back from break. And this is we’re talking about really heavy stuff. And I get that he’s like defusing. But it was getting a little like loose in the turns and it wasn’t feeling fully safe because again he’s they’re like throwing stuff around the room. I was like, hey y’all, can we not do that right now? Can we do this? Can we find fun another way? And he turns to me and said, well, every party has to have a pooper, and I guess you’re the one.

Laura: That’s great. Aha! Ouch!

Renae: And I just. And so that’s an ouch for you and for me. I’m like, shush and sit down.

Laura: That’s so great!

Renae: Right. Like, for like because I.

Laura: What a great demonstration of what we’ve just been talking about.

Renae: Yeah. I don’t like. Tell me I’m not fun, I don’t care. Park it, sister, Park it. Mister.

Laura: Oh, that would be a stab to my heart. I’m not. Not fun.

Renae: So I think that that’s part of the, um, the proximity piece of it and the, um, I would, I would probably posit that practicing collaboration starts with practicing with ourselves and that we have all these parts, we have all these strategies, all of these drivers that are that are clamoring for attention and prominence in our lives and getting to know how to integrate and work with all of them, Um. Um, is how we are able to better do that with other people too.

Laura: I would. I don’t remember which book it was from, but one of Brene Brown’s books, she says, like, just go ahead and assume that everyone’s doing the best they can with the tools and the environment that they are in.

Renae: And so when. That becomes challenging when we’re in situations where, um, like, for instance, you know, this is the fall of twenty twenty five and there’s some political stuff happening in the United States where we have some very differing ideologies about things. Um, and we’re coming up on holidays time where there’s a great opportunity for people to struggle with proximity. Um, and so some people are uninvited to things like Thanksgiving and Christmas and other holidays. Because of that. And so I would I think I would make a suggestion that perhaps spending some time, uh, reflecting, um, when, if, if there’s a, if we are thinking about our table, our holiday table and the people who are going to be there and think through each person, and if there are any people around the table that when we think about them being there, we go, uh, pausing and saying, okay, why do I feel that way? And what is that telling me about my own fears? What strategies are coming up to protect me? As I’m thinking about this, so am I. Am I othering them? Um, because they don’t feel safe? And why don’t they feel safe? And is there? Are there ways that I can create that felt safety in myself or in my environment before we get to the table? In order to make that, you know, successful, for us to be in proximity or what conversations can we have ahead of time to say, hey, let’s clear the deck before beforehand or what’s what supports do I need to have in place? Do I need a code word with my partner that I can? Every time I can feel it coming up, I can say farfegnugen, you know, or whatever the thing happens to be. That is a that is a faux curse word for me, just so you know. Um, so but but I think that’s maybe taking that opportunity to be aware that more than ever, we need each other. And so what are the things getting in the way of us being with each other?

Laura: Yeah, I think that’s great advice.

Renae: So please don’t name the people that you’re thinking about. Laura. No, but but, uh, do you have.

Laura: I’m looking at you.

Renae: What other kind of. What other type of strategies do you would you bring to that that, um, situation?

Laura: I think that the other strategy that you might consider, if you don’t feel like you can bring your best self, is to maybe skip that event. Um, if that’s what you need. Um, and then. Yeah, I mean, I feel like a lot of work beforehand. It’s. I know we’ve talked about this before. Like the time to learn CPR isn’t when somebody is, like, laying there with their heart stopped in front of you. It’s like before that. So it’s the same thing like the the time to do your emotional preparation is not five minutes before the turkey is served. It’s well before.

Renae: And I appreciate you the permission that you’re giving in the US, that maybe you need to skip it. And I think that that’s a part of we’re not. Maybe it’s not. It’s not a punishment for anybody. It is a. If I was ill, I wouldn’t go to the holidays. Right. If I didn’t feel like I could bring a healthy self to the table because it wasn’t I, there’s a chance that I could make it unhealthy for other people. I’m not going to the table. Right. I might just have to zoom in and eat my my turkey tea for dinner on my lap while with everyone else, and that might be as much as I can do. Right.

Laura: Right.

Renae: And so, um. Yeah. So there you have it, folks. Um, cancel the holidays.

Laura: I was gonna say you guys have a lot of work to do before Thanksgiving.

Renae: Uh, hole up in your in your house by yourself.

Laura: Where am I? Big rays of positivity here.

Renae: Well, and you’re worth it. Like we’re all. We’re all worth the time and the reflection and the, um, curiosity. Um, all of us actually are that interesting, uh, whether we feel like it or not. And so it’s, it’s okay for you to to focus in and, um, figure out the things that you need and, and work on communicating that to yourself and to others.

Laura: Absolutely.

Renae: So. Well, as always, Laura, thank you so much for your insight and wisdom. It was fun talking to you today.

Laura: Great to be here.

Renae: Thanks.