It’s Not You, It’s the Container

Renae: it has been really interesting. Um, in, of course, in my head, it’s always very interesting in my head. Um, but even as I’m, um, try to explain to people that I meet that I’m doing these two different things and why, you know, some people like just put it together and I’m like, it, it does go together, but it doesn’t go together.

Laura: Uh huh.

Renae: And I think this idea of, um, why we have why we have containers is not is is not because we can’t it’s not because we’re compartmentalizing because we can’t deal with things. I think we have containers because we want to be really clear with ourselves and other people. I think it’s a form of boundaries.

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: Right. And so and I think that people don’t realize they do this all day long naturally. Right. Like this is my bedtime. This is my meal time. This is my work time. This is my commute. This is, you know, like they, they do that and, and you know, for, for some of us that creates a lot more safety. Um, but also and, you know, you and I have talked before about the, the need for flow.

Laura: Right. Yeah. Mhm.

Renae: And that we that that flow can’t happen without protection. And so I was wondering about the, because this month we’re focusing on, you know, rhythms that that restore and, reclaiming those rhythms and this concept of when do I get to bring my greatest level of creativity, curiosity, collaboration, self into places? It’s when the container is actually really clear. I’m using a lot of C words. Sorry.

Laura: You know, I think also it’s funny when you think about the times when you feel like kind of discombobulated and like, what am I doing here? It’s because you haven’t said to yourself, okay, like, now I’m going to have focused work time. Like, now I’m going to fold my laundry and not worry about work. You know what I mean? Like, the more that you could focus on a single thing at a time, which I think is a container, the more you can feel like you’re moving forward in whatever it is that you want to do that day.

Renae: Right? Well, I’m thinking too about the, like the concept of multitasking and how it’s been scientifically proven that does not exist, that we’re just task switching rapidly, and that even as we get older, we don’t have as much dexterity around that and flexibility, um, or if we’re sick or we’re tired or we’re hungry, you know, all those, those, those stressors take away from that capacity that ultimately leads to a form of burnout. Because where we are. When we have rhythms where we can focus on the one thing and then go to the next thing and feel this beginning, middle and end and feel completion, and who does it serve? I’ll get political. Not not in like party politics, but in like why? How we set up structures. But it it doesn’t it doesn’t serve the producers of of items and it doesn’t serve a certain segment of employers for people to have that laser focus. Because if it keeping them feeling like they that they have to like hustle and rush and go from one thing to the next because there’s a scarcity or I’m not enough or I need that thing. Right. Because it it feeds into that consumer and productivity loop. And so as always like, you know, we like to on this podcast we’re going to bring up um, you know what what are things that we’ve been told by, um, how structures are set up, how containers are set up that maybe aren’t the full truth. And I feel like that’s one of them, that this idea that there’s a, there’s a establishment or an or an organization or an authority that’s supposed to tell you what your container is and you’re and you have to do everything you can to catch up, to be in that space. Versus maybe we have internal wisdom that that can tell us what we actually need.

Laura: And it’s interesting too, when you think about it. Any employer where I’ve ever had that allowed me to set my own containers up and work in the way that was the most efficient and felt the best to me. That is where I have thrived versus places where it was just like, you have to be doing these things in this order. And really, I mean, that wasn’t good for me, but it also wasn’t good for them. You know, like it was counterproductive for them to set it up in that way.

Renae: Yeah. So what need was.

Laura: Like, I delivered so much better work to the people who let me do the work, who I wanted to do the work, and I was more motivated to do it.

Renae: Yeah, absolutely. I’m sorry I interrupted there. Um, I was asking the question. What need does it meet for people who are setting up those spaces, those environments, those expectations that that are that are like that, that, that that don’t speak to our own, you know, our own internal wisdom. And being able to say, this is actually what I need in order to bring my best into this space.

Laura: You’re good. Sometimes. Are you asking? Like, why do you think that people set them up in a in a bad way?

Renae: Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.

Laura: I you know, I honestly think that a lot of it is a what they’ve learned that this is how how things are done and you don’t know any other reality because you haven’t really questioned it or had someone else ask you to question it. And then also, I think sometimes it could be a lack of self-awareness, you know, not understanding that like, I mean, if you if you’re going to think the best of this person who, you know, whoever this may be, you know, like, this is the way I work well and I get the most done when I do this. So why would that not be true for everyone? You know, like, that might be kind of their myopic view of, you know, if you would just do things this way, the way that I’m telling you to do it, we’d all get all the work done and be fine. And I think that, you know, that was certainly true in at least one of the places where I worked, where I think this person just didn’t understand why I couldn’t work the way that they worked.

Renae: Yeah, well, in learning more about my own neurodivergence and why I have not been able to thrive in certain environments, it it does mean I look back at how things were communicated to me when I was meeting my needs and being told, no, you need to be at your desk in this open environment at regular work hours. And I and I kept saying, but I can’t get any work done.

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: I, I can’t I literally can’t do any work. The work I do is not moving a widget from one place to another. It’s expansive. It’s its thoughts. It’s it. There’s this creative element to it. There’s finding patterns, putting things together. And I there are times that my work is the widget, right? Every time I’m like, mm, I’m watching TV, I guess I can work on some Canva stuff because I can always organise my Canva Canva files or create title cards. They don’t take a ton of creativity, you know, there’s like a pattern and a rhythm to it. Um, and so maybe that’s part of it too, is knowing the rhythm that you need to move into and out of flow or the rhythm that you need for a particular time. And I think to your point before, it comes with experience. But I think it also comes with openness to the concept that people are different.

Laura: I had, um, one of my favorite people that I ever worked with. Um, he was a designer, and I was his manager at this in, like. So we had, like, a studio within a larger agency, and there was like four studios. And he they had moved him to my studio. And he at this point wasn’t really thriving. And they had he was a pretty senior person. And they had, you know, asked him to step up and take this leadership position and present work to the client, and he just was not doing well with it. And so they gave him to me and I could. To me, I could see that that wasn’t a role for him and what he was good at was doing design. And just like really getting into the details of stuff that really needs done. When you are doing a logo or a layout or, you know, all of this stuff, like he had just such a great grasp of design knowledge and why you would make certain design choices. And so I just let him be a designer and let him guide the other designers as opposed to lead them. And I never made him, um, present work to the client. And and then he was starting to really thrive. And then everyone was like, you know, you’re such a great leader. And I’m like, I don’t know that. That’s really what it was like. All I did was take away the stuff that he wasn’t doing well at and give him more of the stuff he was doing well you know, it’s like it’s such, like a great example of understanding what, how a person needs to work and how that can actually benefit a structure as opposed to, like trying to fit him into this. Oh, you’ve worked ten years. Well, it’s time for you to be a leader now. Like that is not the path for everyone. And I, I do think that the people that we’re trying to quote, promote him were saying, like, he’s been here for a long time and he’s a smart person. And so, of course he would want to move up in the organization and be a leader here, but that isn’t what he wanted at all.

Renae: Well, in that that’s so interesting that the. Well, a couple things. One is I think you absolutely were a good leader because I believe that’s the job of the leader, the job of the leader. When you’re in the in charge adult for a group is to make sure everybody has what they need to do, what they need to do. Like, and I know I take a very, you know, servant leadership approach to things like, I am here to support you. Um, and, and create the, the environment in which we can all succeed to get to the goal that we have together. And so by that definition, you are absolutely a great leader. And it’s interesting that in like a traditional hierarchical climbing the corporate ladder viewpoint that it’s like to me, I would say, well, it sounds like he’s a creative director. You know, like there’s a promotion right there is that you’re saying he’s a creative director because that’s what he’s doing.

Laura: Yeah, they actually made him a design director so that he could just like, because a creative director was more like a client facing role, and that’s what they were trying to promote him into.

Renae: Right. Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha.

Laura: So that was really interesting.

Renae: Yeah, okay. Great. And thank you for the clarification on the terminology, because I don’t I don’t know from nothing when it comes to that type of agency.

Laura: From organization to organization, it is different. So.

Renae: Okay. But I think that’s the, um. The danger comes when, um, I was in a, in a role where I was able to create my own position in my own department and all of those things. And what I learned in that process is, as the organization grew, the, uh, I believe in specificity of language. There is a reason that we picked the words that we pick for things because they theoretically Erratically communicate, um, expectations just by the words that we pick. And so when it came to, um, when we were, you know, looking at the larger organization because it really was a bunch of directors who were doing the things that they really loved. And then but it was very siloed. And so when there was an effort to bring us together to accomplish a goal collectively, um, there was a disconnect a little bit because in, in my title and in the way that I had created my role, I would be leading that collection. I would be leading the how we how we do this and, and the lens through which we do things, which you can guess is probably trauma informed, which is why that was in the title. Um, as, as well as other pieces of it. And so when I’m sitting down with, um, the executive team and saying, okay, so if we’re moving here, then this is my role. And they’re like, no, that’s not your role. I said, okay, so why did we let me create a role with title, with these, with these job descriptions, if I wasn’t going to be able to do that. So it was it became unsafe for me because we did not have an agreement about what was going on in the organization. And it and it just became clear, oh, this is not like this was never their intent. They just said yes because they like what I do, but not thinking about what the meaning was.

Laura: It’s such a horrible feeling that has happened to me too, where I went into a job thinking it was one thing, and the person that hired me thought it was one thing, and the things that we were thinking it was, were not even on the same planet together. And then it, just as you can imagine, did not work out. It was one of my worst work experiences, and it just feels so. It felt to me like I was doing something wrong and and I really had to talk myself back out of that to say like, this was just a miscommunication. I mean, there was a lot of other baggage with it. But at the at the very core of the issue, we we had not communicated and it wasn’t even either of our faults. What this was supposed to be.

Renae: Yeah.

Laura: But it took me a long time to unwind. Why I felt so much like a failure and a an incompetent person and all of this other stuff.

Renae: Yeah.

Laura: Because of that very thing, like, they thought it was one thing and I thought it was another thing, and these were not lining up.

Renae: Yeah. Well, and I, I have identified for me why it hurt as bad as it did because it was not a short amount of time that I was spending in this organization. Um, and it comes down to I, I had thought I was known. I thought they knew me. I thought I had. At that time, it was harder for me to be vulnerable. And I thought I’d been vulnerable enough. And, and and, um, it’s also when I started to realize that maybe people aren’t as straightforward and honest as I am.

Laura: That’s more of that, more of that understanding other people thing. Right. Like that’s such.

Renae: And. Right.

Laura: So it’s so much work, even for people like you who are really open to doing it.

Renae: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I remember, um, a mentor of mine, um, we were we were working together. It was like thirty years ago. And she said, um, she was about to present to, uh, a leadership I’m trying not to like. People can look up my history of where I worked, so I try to not say anything. Um, she was speaking to a leadership component in her role, um, in her in her in our organization. And she came back and said, I realized part of the problem is they don’t believe me because a couple of them don’t believe me because a couple of them lie. And so they expect that I’m lying, too. And I was like, that is fascinating. And I’ve carried that with me. And so many places, because I am honest to a fault. It is definitely part of how my brain is wired, but also my soul. I don’t I don’t like to carry deceit and it it makes me sick. And I don’t like people lying to me either. And so I do take people a little more at face value, because I don’t want to conceive of a world where it’s people are that deceitful. And yet. And yet.

Laura: We’re very similar in that I always assume that everyone’s telling me exactly the truth and what they’re thinking, and I and I assume that they know that I’m telling you just, you know, like, you can take exactly what I’m saying at face value, like there’s not a hidden agenda there. If I have an agenda, I’ll let you know what it is. Like, I to me it’s just easier to navigate life like that and, um, and similar. Like I’ve had other things where I’m like, I don’t understand why that person did that. I said these things, and my husband, who’s actually very good at reading other people, will be like, well, maybe they think this, or maybe they don’t want to tell you that. I’m like, huh, interesting. I should remember that.

Renae: And I’m. I’m definitely, uh. Well, what? You know, what is this behavior telling me about this person’s experience of the world? You know, like, definitely it’s.

Laura: Right?

Renae: I’m continually saying, okay, what does this mean? You know what? And I and I seek to be compassionate. I do, I really do. Um, and I think somebody asked me, um, why do I think things have gone so sideways? You know, for business and such in the last number of years for me, um, in, in some respects. And it keeps coming back to I trusted people when they said they were going to do what they said they were going to do.

Laura: Yeah. Yeah.

Renae: Right.

Laura: It’s an interesting it’s an interesting conundrum to me when you get into that situation, because you don’t want to be someone that doesn’t that can’t trust anyone, and you don’t want to be someone that’s questioning what somebody says, because I wouldn’t want that. I wouldn’t want someone to do that to me. I would find that really upsetting. And yet then a thing happens and you’re like, I can’t trust anyone.

Renae: Which brings us back to why containers are so important.

Laura: Yes, there is a clear expectation in a container to go back to what you were saying at the beginning.

Renae: Right. That we. Right. So when you’re setting, what have you found is helpful for you to feel safe content, um, um, aligned when you’re setting up those types of containers. I know that in, in your work now is you’re accepting jobs and contracts and, and and roles that this is even more poignant. And. But even outside of that, I’m sure that there have been lots of even with family as we’re heading into holidays and such. Um, those, those communications of expectations are going to be really important. So what’s what’s been successful for you?

Laura: For sure. I edit who I work with to the extent that I feel that I’m able to. And if I, if I get to a point where I accept a job and I know that it’s a little iffy, then I also accept the consequences of that or I, you know, will say to myself later, like, you knew this, walking into this like you can validate your own gut, right? Um, but I, I am fortunate enough that I, I can do that. I know that not everyone can choose the people that they work with on the projects that they work on. So I’m really fortunate in that way. But that does help me very much maintain expectations. Um, because I work with people that who’s who understand me and whose expectations I understand. And then as far as family, I have found myself recently. Not being great at. There’s just so much happening in lives right in all of our lives. And I’ll think to myself, okay, this needs done, that needs done. This is going to go a certain way. And then failing to communicate that to everyone who that involves a lot of times my poor husband. And then I’ll just. I don’t know why. I assume he knows it. Um, but I do. And then and then I’ll say, okay, well, we’re going here on this, on this time. And he’ll say, what are you talking about? So it has been a, um, communication, I guess, is the bottom line for me to pause and to say, does everyone that needs to know about this plan know about this plan?

Renae: Mhm.

Laura: Is this okay with all the people involved in this plan, or am I making assumptions? And often like I’m making an assumption that it’s okay because if I had told the person about the plan, it would be okay. And so it’s not like a plan that’s going to upset anyone. It’s just that they need to know that because they need to set their own expectation of what’s going to happen at that day. So I think for me, it’s the the pause of saying, okay, does everyone know what’s happening next week?

Renae: Yeah. Those pauses are really, really important. And I think it’s part of the um it, it’s, it is our individual part in a way of setting ourselves up and the people in our spaces up for success to actually either calendar or Ritualize or or, you know, create a process for how is it that I make sure that I have left enough margin, that I have capacity to be mindful like that? Um, I’ve been working with a lot of, um, clients on this concept of, of buffering, um, of creating buffers. Actually recorded that in a podcast that came out, um, this week. Um, that, that is how do we how do we even set ourselves up with these, these pauses, these moments where it’s we yes, we catch a breath. Yes, we meet our biological needs. And, um, and that is incredibly important. That’s the number one thing. And then secondary to that is then it gives us space to To recognize what a next wise best step is going to be, or what other part we might have missed. And it’s it. It’s wild to me that it is countercultural for us to do that, because we’re so used to just going from one thing to the next really quickly.

Laura: I feel that deeply. I like calling it buffering. That’s really like this needs to load before I open another program.

Renae: In my life, I have generally been able to choose if I’m going to be minus ADHD. Um, this is before ADHD. Actually, I have not been able to choose it since it fully landed, but, um, I was able to choose whether I could just, like, laser focus on something or if I would go soft focus and I could choose like the whole, like I’m just going to go soft focus and not. And I kind of it unfortunately, it was probably a little form of dissociation, um, where I was just like there, but not really there. Um, and, and so now, you know, now I’m, I’m medicated, which is great for my ADHD. It’s just been really interesting to think about that. Um, even in the context of. What it used to take for me to focus in on something. Um, it was such a heavy lift. And eventually my system just turned a lot of its receptors off. Because I was in so many situations where the only option was for me just to to bear down and carry on, and I had to ignore warnings that were going on inside of me And needs and all those things. And I think I’ve struggled with depression my whole life. And I think that’s exactly the reason why of looking at that. If if the opposite of depression is expression and I didn’t have a voice to even communicate my needs or that things were not okay, it makes perfect sense. And when I. I have very big and deep feelings now. And I say, man, this humaning thing is really hard and it wouldn’t hurt so bad if I was a machine again. And I’m choosing to I’m choosing to be present. But the only way I can succeed in staying present and attuned and aware is if I’m creating those buffers, those containers, those spaces that allow me to actually pause and say, check for alignment and do I have everything that I need? And, um, and am I steamrolling right now or am I creating a path? Right. Like there’s this check that I require in order to human. Well, I don’t think it’s just me, though. I’m gonna put that out there.

Laura: You’re the. You don’t think you’re the only individual that needs to, uh, learn how to human?

Renae: Um.

Laura: I think you might be right about that. I think you’re on to something.

Renae: Uh, so the thing I do, you know, I have my routine that I do, and I do my alignment check and all my parts of myself up every day, and some days I don’t like today. I haven’t done it before. We got on to talk and I can feel that it’s like, uh, there’s a little like it’s not a habit because I don’t have those, um, but it’s the like, I feel like I’m out of alignment, not fully in alignment. And, and so I, I, I crave that time with myself to just make sure I have what I need to go through the day and, um, and, you know, if I can’t, if I, if I don’t have what I need, I’m learning to also grace myself for what I call potato days from some person on the internet who’s like, you just need to accept some days or a potato day and you’re not going to get anything done. And I’m like, I don’t know why it’s a potato, Except maybe it’s supposed to be couch potato. I don’t know, but potatoes are fluffy and tasty and lovely. So.

Laura: Well, there you go. What a great day to have. That’s funny. I love the idea of an alignment check. I mean, I know you’ve talked about it before, but I for some reason today, it’s just really striking me as a thing I want to write down, like an alignment check and how you could build that in as a, as a ritual, which I know that’s what you do.

Renae: Okay. So. Um. I am working on a a planner. Um, I’ve been cobbling things together from sources and trying things out and working on the rhythm of it. Um, and because I want it to be customizable, but to also, you know, to have a framework, a container, a framework that that says here’s, you know, here, take your pause and go through each part and address what’s best for you in each part of your whole person.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: Um, and it’s it actually, um. I think that’s part of why when people say, with everything going on, how can you keep doing what you’re doing? And I’m like, I think that’s probably it. I mean, Jesus, yes, but, um, but it’s but that’s that’s part of the alignment. Absolutely. So yeah, that’s good stuff. Absolutely.

Laura: Oh, yeah. Lately I’ve been. I, um, really enjoy reading and but I’ve, I, I go in and out of it, like, sometimes I can’t find anything that’s interesting me long enough for me to finish it. But lately I’ve had a pretty good string of books that have been interesting, and I’ve been doing a thing where, um, I might wake up and the first thing I do is read that book for thirty minutes and it feels so indulgent and also is not at all indulgent, but I have been allowing myself that space and that feels really nice.

Renae: Beautiful. Beautiful. There is a there is a part of um, um, my alignment check that is about nourishing and it’s in the body section. Um, and I definitely put down a bunch of stuff that’s not about the body, but it is about my like, there’s all kinds of things I can do to nourish myself that has an impact on how much my body can function. Right. And I would put that in there, um, like arts and crafts. Go in there and hang out with a friend, goes in there and candles and coffee and other things that like create a piece for me so that my nervous system is has some of what it needs. Um, and I think when people talk about nervous system, sometimes they’re thinking about it being calm. But that’s not always what we need, actually. Right. We need a whole diet of things so that we can have a balanced system, not just a regulate like a down regulation system.

Laura: Right?

Renae: And I think that’s important.

Laura: Yeah, I think a lot of times people assume that when you say regulate your nervous system. Well, I think I think the trigger for that is people feeling worry and anxiety and then automatically translating that to be like, okay, I need to be calm. But that’s not necessarily true, right? Like creativity can be the the opposite of anxiety. And that’s not necessarily you’re in a calm place.

Renae: Right, right.

Laura: It might be in an excited place.

Renae: Yeah. Well, it’s, um. Right. There is a whole, um, danger when we talk about system regulation that, um, becomes about control, which is not the same thing. Um, it’s not about control. It is making sure things are balanced, that you have all the different parts in alignment, um, so that it can function. And so it’s, it’s like more of the guardrails, I think, and then being able to say, what do what am I able to access the adjustments that I need to in order to go from one state to the other. So it’s a little more about flexibility. It’s a little more about, um, you know, the literacy in our emotions, our understanding of communication, all of those types of things about, um, am I able to to, um, transition? Well, am I able to, um, change from one state to the other without it being a shock to the system? Have I set in those practices that let me flow basically.

Laura: Yeah, we’re a complex system, right? And then navigating all of all of the pieces and parts of it to be healthy.

Renae: So what will you um what do you need for your setting yourself up for success in this next season.

Laura: Yes.

Renae: What needs.

Laura: I will continue to place a focus on the buffering zone before I schedule Reschedule things or or just to, to take that and fully load the implications of making a plan and let everyone who needs to know about it know about it. I think that will be the work of this busy season.

Renae: Yeah, I think for me it’s, um, continuing to articulate to myself the frameworks that I know will help me to be successful. I remember going, um, I don’t know if you remember the film Little Miss Sunshine. It’s a while ago, and, um, it was in our friend group. There was only two of us that wanted to go see it, and there was this gal, and we didn’t always get along, but we both wanted to see the movie. So we went to the theater, and we’re talking through things before the movie starts. Um, because it was, you know, before everyone was glued to their phones. Really. Um, but, um, she said to me, you know, I used to think that you were really high maintenance. And I thought to myself, oh, how is this going to go? And she said, what I’ve realized is you’re just telling people what it is that you want to do. You don’t have any expectations that they’re going to do the same thing. And I was like, yes, ding ding ding.

Laura: Thank you for understanding me.

Renae: That is true. I am.

Laura: What a what a funny revelation for her to. I mean, like, such a good example of somebody understanding someone else’s, um, way of being and motivations and then that changing their own opinion, which you have not, you have never changed. Right. But like their perception of you has changed in their understanding of you.

Renae: And well. And certainly, you know, this was a this was a while ago, and I was still just at the beginning of learning my voice, but I sure was practicing. I sure was, um, you know, taking every opportunity to to check in with myself and say, am I doing this because I’m expected to or am I doing this because I want to? And if I’m expected to, does that serve me? Um, and and I know even now, like in the back of my head, I’m like, oh, that sounds a little selfish. Right. So I think about the programming that I’m still untangling from that says, it’s okay for me to choose things that are good for me.

Laura: Yes.

Renae: It’s wild. Wild.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: So it’s wild. Well, Laura, thank you so much for exploring these these containers and the, you know, the expectations that we set with each other as humans and, um, you know, thinking about the ways that we can create the conditions for success, as a friend of ours likes to say. Um, so thank you so much for your time today.

Laura: It’s wacky. Right? Thank you. Great to see you.