Why Do You Need a Moat? Space, Safety, and the Fear of Being Consumed

Renae: Well, hello, Laura. Welcome to week two of The hermit.

Laura: Hello. We’ve come out of our caves to record this episode.

Renae: And so, um, in week two, we’re going to talk about protection. Um, really the, the idea of why do we retreat? We started to explore a little bit about that, about that in, in week one, in the last episode. And, um, I think this is a little bit about honoring, honoring the retreat and, um, saying that we don’t have to let it ruin everything and run us. Um, just because it’s a, it’s a way that we’re being protected. So, um, so yeah, what, what, uh, when I say retreat, what does that actually bring up for you to begin with?

Laura: Well, I like that you use the word retreat because it feels a little more nurturing and loving and comforting than, um, I don’t know, escape or because you say like, I’m going to go on a retreat now, I guess some people could interpret it as like, we’re in a battle and we need to retreat. But when you first said it, I think it does feel like, okay, like I it feels more like I need a sack. I gotta collect myself and then we’re going to come back, you know, like our retreat is a place that you return from, right? Escape is like you going somewhere and never coming back. So I enjoy this idea of retreating.

Renae: Yeah. And I, and I think too, like, um, the way that you’re positioning that, that retreat can be part of a rhythm, um, that you, that you say I’m, I’m extending myself and then I’m pulling back and then I’m extending myself, then I’m pulling back. And I think that kind of like honors the dynamic nature of our lives, right? That we’re not, we’re not one thing or the other all the time where we can. We have that type of energy and, um, to, to be out there doing the things all the time, even if we’re an extrovert, even if that’s gregarious or whatever. Um, there’s this rhythm that that holds us.

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, even when all of our outside circumstances are unchanging, which is, you know, pretty much never. But also even within that closed system, your energy shifts is dynamic. Your feelings shifts are dynamic. So I do love that idea of, you know, it’s allowing you to come and go based on your own personal energy and needs. And then it’s also giving you a space to reflect and assess.

Renae: And, and when you just said that, it kind of made me start to think about, you know, being, being in a, caring role. Um, which, whether that is something that’s, that we’ve chosen or it’s been a default or it’s been an expectation, um, that that ebb and flow is not always honored by the system around us, by the environment, by the, the unit. And so in some ways, um, I’m wondering if maybe this hermit part crops up to, to create that if it doesn’t exist in the system.

Laura: Oh, I think that’s a really, really strong insight, you know, because I, as you were talking, I was thinking to myself, yeah, like you really have to be, um, overt and say, I need space, I need space. And then sometimes we’re just not comfortable doing that. Or sometimes we don’t realize that we need it. And then this, um, part is cropping up and being like, well, then I’m going to do it because you’re not.

Renae: So it becomes it’s a survival reaction, right? Instead of a, a protective response when it gets to that level. Yeah. And so, um, and what, what do we, what, when we think about why, um, you know, I, I, I talk about this a lot with my husband when we, from the beginning of the time that our, our kiddos moved in, um, as we were providing, um, a first foster care and then as being adoptive parents, um, we would be chasing the why and the question of our reactions to things. Um, what it, when it came down to it, we’d say to each other, what’s, what is your fear response about? What are you afraid of? This is there’s something at the, at the core of this. And so what might be some of the things that would we, when we retreat. Um, what might we be protecting? What are we afraid of?

Laura: Yeah, it’s a good question. I think that for me personally, you know, like, that’s the first thing that’s coming to mind is just how I might fear having to just keep giving energy until I’m completely depleted. And then also I, I can think about how, um, I might get a feeling of feeling trapped in a place where that I don’t like, you know, like maybe it happens a lot when I have to, I don’t want to call it being on, but when I have to be interacting with people a lot who I like. But also there comes a time when we have reached the end of the battery, and for me to think about continuing to interact when I’m at that place makes me feel really sweaty. And also I also know myself well enough to know that my interactions with you at that point where I have a dead battery are not pleasant, and I am much more likely to say something that I don’t quite mean, or that I wouldn’t say under other circumstances. So I think that’s part of the protection too, is I’m trying to protect some other people from some things that I might say that would be unpleasant, that I would normally not do.

Renae: Yeah. Yeah. And I hear that the like the fear of being consumed. Yes. I think that that’s a, I think that if I was going to put a, a, a, a word around that, it’s um, in some ways I’m and consumed means like you become something else and. You are, you’re used up. Yeah. And I think there’s a, um, we’ve, we’ve talked before about the importance of expression, the importance of showing up and being able to express your full and authentic self in spaces. And the, the death of that is, is a real death, right? When we when we when we are repressed or suppressed or, um, or we have to mask. Um, it has such a huge toll on us. Heart, mind, body and soul is a, you know, like every single part of us is affected by that. And so in some ways, I’m thinking that the, the fear here of being consumed is I’m trying to protect so that I don’t disappear, so that I’m not consumed and have to become something else.

Laura: Yeah, yeah. I think that’s a really, um, astute, um, explanation of what I just said for sure. How about you? When you think about the times when you, because you and I, I mean we’re similar, but we have a different personalities for sure. How when you think about retreat, you know, withdrawal, what does that make you feel like? What’s underneath that?

Renae: Um, so the, the first word that came up in my mind when you said retreat or withdraw is failure. And I can tell you where that comes from. You know, I come from a, a. My family by and large, extended family and family of origin. Our military. And so there is a piece of, oh, we are losing this battle. We need to retreat. And that does that is it can be strategic, but it’s also not. That does indicate things are not going well.

Laura: Mhm. Mhm.

Renae: Right.

Laura: Yeah. It’s admitting a failure. And Because, you know, if you didn’t, if things were going great, you wouldn’t have to retreat. Right?

Renae: Right. And so I, that’s so I was just listening for like, my, my knee jerk reaction to that to say, okay, the, the it my baseline from, from whence I came. That’s what it means. And, um, the way that it is now, it’s, it, when I think of retreat, I think, oh, but is it going to be an actual retreat? I’ve been to so many bad retreats that were really just like organized work.

Laura: That’s great. Yeah. So you have a lot of associations with the word retreat that aren’t necessarily nurturing and comfortable like mine.

Renae: Oh, no, no, I’ve, and I’ve, I’ve been on a couple of retreats in the last year where, um, I was able to actually just sleep. And I think that that’s big. A big part of it that, um, you know, I, I spend a lot of energy and so I, and I don’t necessarily always have places to, um, really fill up. And so it’s kind of like I’m running on that, um, the quarter tank, you know, and I keep going down to where the light’s coming on. And so I fill up to the quarter tank and that means I have enough gas, right? But I’m still really close to the empty line.

Laura: Yeah, yeah. The old put five dollars in the tank, which wouldn’t get us very far today. But back in the old days when I was actually physically doing that, it was giving me about a quarter tank.

Renae: And so yeah, there’s a, there’s definitely like these rules that, that crop up here of, you know, don’t admit that you’re failing. Don’t let people see that you don’t have it all together. Um, and, you know, gotta produce, gotta create, gotta do the thing.

Laura: Another thing going back to that, um, like the actual literal retreat metaphor that just aligns with what you’re saying right now. I think that, so I went on a retreat last year and it was very spacious. You know, we had like a yoga class in the morning and a yoga class in the evening. And that was basically all we needed to do. And the yoga class in the evening was even like an hour and a half of restorative, which if you’ve taken restorative yoga, you know that it’s basically like laying in one position for, you know, fifteen, twenty minutes at a time. And, um, and I wonder people running retreats if they fall in this now that I think that was a good example of something that was that did feel very restorative. You know, in general, and I wonder if people running retreats think, oh, well, we have to have a lot of stuff done or else that’s not very valuable. You know, like, and this association that is hard for us to unlink ourselves from that the more stuff we do, the more valuable we are. And, um, you know, whether on an actual retreat or a real retreat from or I guess real retreat, as in like us retreating from whatever a circumstance is, if we’re not still doing some stuff, then, you know, is this a huge waste of time?

Renae: Yeah. And, and I, I was just reflecting on the, um, I, I was with an organization that would do an annual retreat, but it by no means was it actually a retreat. I just, you know, it was great time to do stuff, but it was vision casting and it was reporting and we were all staying in the same place. And so for three days, you’re with people, you don’t have your own space. You can’t get away. There’s no downtime. It’s lots of programming. And I’m like, there is nothing retreat about this because.

Laura: You need a retreat from that retreat.

Renae: Oh my gosh.

Renae: It’s just a it’s just work. It’s just work and we’re stuck and we can’t get away. Yeah. And so people are like, we need to carpool. And I’m like, heck no, I’m bringing my car.

Laura: Under no circumstances.

Renae: My felt safety says I need, if I have to go, I need to go. And I think that that’s part of it too. The, um, sometimes I, I do just need to be in the car alone, and I’m not even listening to any music or podcast or anything. I just need to be By myself.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: Um, and not have a whole bunch of input because the input requires me to sort it into be hyper vigilant and see is, is there danger for me? Is there danger for someone else? Is there a need? Um, and so I, I need a break from that because I’m paying attention so much. Um, and I’m thinking too, like when you talk about like, for some people, they’re like, this is a great break. And I’m like, there because you’re in charge of the schedule.

Laura: Right?

Renae: You it’s what works for your temperament. It is not.

Laura: Reflective of a retreat for them. Right? Yeah.

Renae: And so I think when I, when I’m, it’s, it comes down to me really looking at what is it that I actually need.

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: Right. And so instead of it being vague, it is, what can I identify that would have made it an actual retreat for me?

Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Yeah. I think when I, when I consider like, when I withdraw, like, what are my big needs? I mean, I think it is just that recharge of energy, but it’s also what I always say to colleagues a lot because in, in my work, I do work with a lot of people who, like everyone I work with, is really highly creative. But then some people are just like really great creatively off the cuff, you know, they can come up with a hundred ideas right here while we’re sitting here. And my mind just does not work like that. Like I always tell people I’m a percolator, like I gotta sit on it. And that doesn’t even necessarily mean actively thinking about it, but it means putting it somewhere and then coming back to it. And I think that that is the same like, not only do I have to do that with my work, I have to do it with everything. You know, I can’t just constantly process stimuli. It has to, I have to, um, let it, let it process in asynchronously.

Renae: Yeah. And I think that that’s, there’s something, um, knowing this about ourselves and being able to articulate it without feeling silly or stupid or, or whatever, you know, ashamed. Um.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: To say it’s, it’s okay that I have different needs and it’s okay that these are my needs and, and that they might change. So it doesn’t mean that it’s static, but, um, for, for this season, for this day, for this moment, this is what I actually need. And the that if we’re the person in charge of creating the container that we are, we are gracious for different, different needs. Um, I do remember that when um, gosh, this is a long time ago, um, in my very early young adult time, I was working with someone who was developing, um, or who ran programs for youth and young adults. And she, she really was part of how I’ve developed my, you know, pedagogy style of here’s how we move from one thing to the next and where we’re going. And she said, it’s so important that you always plan on structured time that or that’s like structured that you say, this is free time, and here’s the things that are available to you. And that has to be part of the regular rhythm of anything that you’re planning. So she’s like from the office to an event to whatever you need to provide that time for people to, to. And I, at the time, we didn’t have the words to get their needs met, but that’s, that’s what it was about. And that wisdom of creating that space. And so it for us individually to work on, how do we articulate and say, this is what I need and recognize that what we’re actually doing is creating, um, a boundary, a healthy boundary for ourselves by saying, I’m going to do this right over here because this is what I need and it doesn’t have to do. We’re just, we’re creating that space if it’s not been created for us.

Laura: Yeah, yeah. And I think too, when you, when you consider that, you know, like this is a, this is a need I have, like eating or sleeping like I need to have retreat time, let’s call it. And the more intentional you can be about setting that aside for yourself, the less you’re going to find yourself in a full on shutdown retreat.

Laura: Right.

Laura: Now, because you are already anticipating that that’s going to be something that you’re going to need to have. So, um, you know, like you’re talking about it as someone planning things for, uh, for other people. And I think that we ourselves could also plan in that way for ourselves. We need unstructured time. We need hermit time, you know, as part of our, and we know the more that we, uh, the more that we are watching these patterns in ourselves and the more we’re reflecting on this. We know how much we need because some people are going to need more than others, right?

Renae: And it could be different for different seasons too. And so I think that that’s the, um, you know, sometimes we can get really formulaic like, oh, I need this much time. And then we calendar it or we, it becomes a formula. Um, instead of a function. Um, that, that says, you know, let me check in. What do I need? What, what, what are my different options? And so maybe not having too many options if this is a new practice, but to say, um, you know, what scripts can I develop for myself that I can say, okay, I’m recognizing that I’ve hit this limit. Um, how am I going to take care of myself? And so it might be, um, just saying, I, I’m going to take a pause. I’ve, I’ve hit my limit and I need a pause and, um, or in practicing saying that to ourselves so that we can say it with, with, with kindness and respect to other people too. Because if not, then we this is where we get into that situation where we go, you know, we, we we have a moat, we pull up the drawbridge and we retreat to the panic room. We double the guards.

Laura: Yeah. Yeah.

Laura: Well, I think that maybe we can close this conversation right here, because what we’re going to talk about next week is why I think we’re starting to hint at, which is how are we being more intentional about making about adding retreats, making them a safe space and other related things? Um, do you have anything else that you want to add to close out this episode? Renae.

Renae: Yeah, I just want to encourage you that, um, if you’re listening to this and, and this has resonated with you at any point and you felt maybe some of that same wrinkle of, oh, you know, feeling failure or, um, but people need me and, but you recognize this dance that you end up doing, um, Between protective and expressive. Um, that there’s nothing wrong with you. It’s it is just your brain and body doing what it it’s, it does to protect you. And this is just giving you information. This is just data that helps you to, to see things clearly. And so there’s, there’s nothing wrong if you need a break and a pause and let’s, um, let’s just be kind to each other.

Laura: Yeah, absolutely.

Renae: So go ahead. And if you are following along with the micro journeys, we invite you to download Micro Journey two for the hermit. And of course, there’s always the deeper dive option if you would like to purchase the um, companion workbook. So thank you so much, Laura for this great conversation. I look forward to our next time.

Laura: Like Wise. See you then.

Renae: All right.