Meet The Hermit: When Pulling Back Is Protection, Not Rejection

Renae: Well, hello, Laura. How are you doing today?

Laura: Hello. I’m well. How are you doing?

Renae: I’m all right. I’m a little tired. Um. I can’t believe that we’re. We’re like a third of the way through the year. And I hate that because I feel like we just got started, but here we are. And, um, I’m, I’m actually looking forward to this particular, um, months focus quite a bit as we look at the hermit and, um, that part of ourselves that pulls back when life is feeling like too much. And so, um, yeah, I, I’m excited to jump into this with you.

Laura: Yeah. Same. I feel like I have a lot of hermit like tendencies. So I’m interested to discuss this with you to find that edge between what is constructive hermit behavior and what is less helpful hermit behavior.

Renae: Absolutely, Absolutely. And I, I have to confess right from the beginning of this whole conversation that people in my life, um, not every, not everyone in my life, but several people in my life have heard me at some point say, you know, I kind of just wish I could be like that. Like back in the medieval times, there’d be like these wise women that lived in this little kind of shut off building where people would like, come and talk to them and slide food through, through the little opening that they were basically left to their own device. A lot of the time. And, um, I didn’t realize how, how much I resonated with that until probably when we were doing a lot more work from home. Um, but I think in some respects, you know, as much as I love people, I’d actually also be kind of okay.

Laura: I one hundred percent love being by myself a lot. And to the point where sometimes, um, well, like when I worked in an office with people, I would go and I had a team reporting to me and I loved them. And also I would often hide so that I could get some work done. And so that I didn’t get interrupted every. It felt like every 30s. I’m sure it wasn’t that, but, um, I definitely enjoy time alone to not just, um, do exactly what I want to do, but also just to think.

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: I think that that’s what maybe sometimes is misunderstood about that. It’s not that we’re in this part of ourselves as anti people. Um, it is, it is really a, a reaction, right? If we believe that all behavior is communication, the behavior of withdrawal, the behavior of pulling back, of seeking solitude is communicating a kind of a big sense of overwhelm.

Laura: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I, I think that often other people and their feelings and needs and, and not even when they’re necessarily negative or even quote too much, just all of that onslaught does feel like a lot. And sometimes it’s difficult for me to reason out how I feel. Um, out when I’m in the presence of people who are, um, having big feelings, you know, either way. And so I, um, love to withdraw just to say, okay, like what is, you know, am I upset because this person’s upset, you know, or, you know, how do I really feel about that? And it’s difficult for me to sort that out often in the presence of other people.

Renae: Yeah. And if, if we’re in roles where we are often the emotional or the mental load or the temperature setter of the space, right? The we’re providing a lot of co-regulation. Um, the balance of which part is being, which part is someone else? Is that healthy part, right? That, that awareness of my autonomy, you know, what is authentically mine to hold? And what am I choosing to enter into with someone else? And I think that the, the, a hermit reaction is when I don’t feel like I have a choice and my brain and body are trying to create that boundary.

Laura: Yeah, yeah, that’s interesting to think about the difference between a hermit reaction versus an intentional hermit phase. You know what I mean? You like, I think there’s some times when you’re just like, oh my God, I gotta get away from these people or whatever, and then you’re just like shutting down. I mean, I can totally see myself in both of those places where it’s just like, you are all too much and I don’t want to deal with that. And I’m just going to ignore that and be my myself versus places where I am maybe in a little bit more of a more of a less reactive way where I’m just like, okay, I need to process, I’m going to step back for a minute. And I hadn’t really thought about it in that way before. So thanks for thanks for bringing that up.

Renae: Well, I’ve, I’ve definitely spent time in both of those places. Um, and I, and I actually just went on a retreat, um, a week and a half ago and it was, um, unlike any other retreat I’ve ever been on and I’m really glad that I did it, even though it was very different. Um, but it was specifically, um, for moms of, um, of either special needs or chronic, chronically ill or adoptive, um, foster parent moms, um, who, who are basically need rest, they’re burnt out. And it was a situation where there was a grant and it was paid for and it was local enough and I didn’t have any commitments for that weekend. And so I said, oh, well, this has come up three times in front of me, so maybe I should pay attention to it. And it was it’s an unstructured it’s there’s no programming. There’s no, there’s no, um, you don’t have to talk to anybody. You don’t have to engage with anybody. You can make that choice. And in fact, in the little carriage house I was in, I, I spoke to the person I shared a house with for three days, exactly three sentences. And that was it. Um, so she was in her room with the door closed and, and, and I was in my room with my door closed most of the time. And, um, I, you know, I did meet with some of the other people that were in, in another spot on the property, but not a whole lot. And I at some point, you know, on the, the group chat, they said, is anybody here? And I’m like, I’m on nap number two. And, and I slept for like ten hours each night and I watched some movies that I wanted to watch, and I didn’t. And the internet was terrible, so I couldn’t actually work. And, um, it was a break and I’m really glad I did it. And I had, as I was heading into it, I said to my husband, I’m excited because I wanted to like work on some things I’m writing. And I said, but I’m a little worried that I’m just going to sleep the whole time. And then I paused myself and said, I need to be okay if I just sleep the whole time. And I think that that’s the, the the peace of it is I don’t know that I think that we, that that when we retreat, when we pull back, when we withdraw, um, sometimes it looks so different than the normal push and hustle that people are like, are you okay? Is there something wrong? Are you burnt out? Did you just, you know, is it too much in a way that, that we, we actually might want to think about how do we have regular intervals of, of, and practices of, of rest and ponder and solitude because we clearly need it.

Laura: Yeah, I think so. And I think the more that we can be intentional about it, the less we’re going to be reactionary about it, right? If we are gifting ourselves this time that we need to be by ourselves, to think, to sort, to rest, then I think that it’s easier to not get overwhelmed, um, by other people in their stuff.

Renae: Well, and what when you think about if I say the two words solitude and isolation, um, where do you, how would you define those differently? Um, when we’re, you know, especially as we’re thinking about the part of ourselves that’s the hermit.

Laura: Yeah, it’s interesting. When I think about isolation, I think about something that feels a lot more lonely and something that feels like it’s not a choice that I made. Um, it feels like something that’s being done to me. I’m isolated from something, but when I feel when I think about solitude, I think, oh, that sounds nice to me. Solitude sounds peaceful, and it sounds like a choice that I made to be by myself. And, um, it also feels really empowering, you know, like it is, it is a solitude as a space where I don’t have to, um, negotiate about where we’re going to eat or what we’re going to watch or where we’re going to go. And I don’t mind doing those things with other people because I like other people, but also I like to have a time when I choose exactly what happens, I choose exactly what music we’re going to listen to without somebody else making fun of it. Like one thing that I love doing, um, in solitude is going to the movies by myself because it’s not a great place to interact with someone else anyway. You know, like you’re there to watch the movie. So I love going to a movie by myself and watching exactly what I want to watch and just being there in the dark by yourself. And I don’t know, to me, it just feels like an immersive experience that you can just, you know, you can just be there.

Renae: And so it’s interesting too, because the, the theme that I’m hearing through this is that the, there’s less of a, of a cost to the nervous system and to the brain and to all of those things. Um, when we’re in a place where we choose solitude, right? That there’s, there’s less of a, a tax maybe, or a, um, a cost, you know, I said, I think I said it right the first time that, um, and that when we are in relationships, it does, especially in relationships where there’s a reciprocity and there’s a healthy give and take. Mhm. There is a cost to not being selfish and putting ourselves at the front of everything, but instead of instead negotiating needs, right? Like we, when we’re, we think about the four hallmarks of secure attachment, of giving, nurturing care, receiving, nurturing care and negotiating needs and autonomy. I think that that comes into a great discussion here of the, the, a hermit reaction is when I can’t do those things in a healthy balance. But the hermit response means that I that I am negotiating my needs and that when someone says, hey, um, I can take over your part of contributing to this organization or this group or this family so that you can go and take care of yourself. That’s them giving, nurturing care and me being able to do that without having to check in, you know, and say, oh, is it okay if I do this or this or this while I’m in that space of solitude? That’s partly my autonomy. So in some ways, a hermit responses is showing healthy attachment.

Laura: Yeah, yeah, that’s really interesting. I really enjoy that. Um, the idea of someone else as a caregiver to like, for example, last night I, after we made dinner, I usually wash the dishes, which is fine. And that’s just kind of like, I don’t mind doing it. So I usually do it. But last night it just felt really cranky. And so my husband, without asking, just washed the dishes and it did really feel like, oh, okay, now that’s like a thing. I don’t have to worry. I don’t have to do. I don’t have to worry about it. And I can kind of do what I want to do. Um, and so I really like that idea of us as caregivers being able to take something off of someone’s plate to allow them to have solitude so that they can kind of recharge, I guess.

Renae: Mhm. Well, and I, as we were talking about solitude, um, the nerd part of me popped up and said, uh, Superman had a fortress of solitude. Like the dude who was the fastest.

Laura: The Superman forgot about the fortress.

Renae: Incredibly powerful, saving lives, putting himself in harm’s way to take care of all of these other people had to go to his Fortress of solitude to heal, to rest up, to be by himself in his fortress of solitude, to write. And so even even in that, like, there’s a pattern of I give, and then I retreat to care for myself. And, and that’s okay.

Laura: Yeah. Yeah. You know, what’s interesting to me is, is when I think about this, because you and I, I think are both good at solitude and both enjoy solitude. And then I know some people, my daughter is one of these people who has trouble being alone, who wants to have people around all the time and, um, gets energy from being around people. And I’m, and I’m wondering what your viewpoint is on Like, does everybody need solitude? Or are some people. Just wired in the way that they don’t really need it? What do you think about that?

Renae: Um, I, and I know it could turn into like an extrovert introvert conversation in looking at that. And so I, I don’t think even that it’s introvert or extrovert as maybe and maybe it’s stage of life as well. Like, I mean, there is a, um. We were, we were raised in a time where there wasn’t the same connected technology and there was downtime. And so maybe our brains and bodies crave different physical manifestations of it. But I even, I honestly think that, um, when you, you see a group of young people who are in a circle and they’re on their phones, not talking to each other. I think that there’s, there’s like maybe that is communicating. They’re on their own solitude journeys together. Right. So there’s safety in being together. And also they’re in their own world. So like locked in on social media or the chats or whatever is happening on the phone in front of them where it’s not fully safe. It, they do feel overwhelmed to try to engage the other ways. Yeah. But the, but this is they’re practicing it in, in real time without physically going somewhere else, but they’re definitely mentally going somewhere else.

Laura: Yeah, that’s really interesting.

Laura: I, I hadn’t thought of that. Um, I, I don’t want to go down a whole rabbit hole about technology, but when, when I was at mom’s weekend the other weekend with my daughter, we, we went out to like a bar one night and then the next day we went out to a brunch and that one of her friends was hosting. And neither time did I take my phone because there’s nothing, you know, like, if her dad needs to get a hold of us, he’ll text her, you know? And then she’s probably the only other person I talked to a lot and like it, she could not even like she was just like, I can’t believe you don’t you’re not going to take it. And I was like, well, what do I need it for? You know? And like her attachment to it was just so interesting to me that you couldn’t, you know, and I’m also like, we’re here with all of your friends.

Laura: You know, like, who else could you possibly need to talk to? Right. Um, but it was still, she was just so attached to it.

Laura: Um.

Laura: But, you know, she was.

Laura: Getting notifications from.

Laura: People that weren’t there. So I guess it’s keeping her connected to her entire social circle.

Laura: But I think you’re right about stage of life too. And just like the differences in generations and how we grew up.

Renae: Well, and also the, um, like that piece of, um, I will often say to my husband, I’ll ask a question about something and I, I wonder a lot like, so I’m a person who’s very curious and I say, oh, I wonder what this is or. Huh? I was thinking about this, I wonder that or and I will, and I’ll just sit there and I’ll ponder and think about it. And he will grab his phone and look it up. And I’m like, hey, so to me, the, the practice of thinking through something is, is just as rewarding in a lot of ways as getting the answer. And I don’t need the answer. And if I needed the answer, I’d pick up the phone and ask Mr. Google myself.

Laura: My husband is like you. He’s a, he’s a. He doesn’t want me to look up the answer. I’m like, well, we could just find out. And he’s just like, no, no, I just want to think about it. That’s really funny.

Renae: Well, and so when, when people say, when I see people at events with speaking events, and I haven’t seen them in four years, but I remember them and they’re like good memory. And I’m like, well, I think about things, you know, like, or, or, um, when I, when I’m watching something and I see an actor and I go, oh yeah, they were in this particular thing. Or if I’m, if I hear a voice actor and I’m like, oh, it’s so and so. And it, it part of it’s just because there’s, there’s a part of me that’s thinking through the, oh, what was that casting decision? Or do I, what do I think about that choice? Or as. So I’m, I’m there is a little bit of like introspection that’s happening while I’m engaging with things. And so that that deep thinking piece of it. Um, that does feed me even while I’m engaging with other people.

Laura: Yeah. You know, what’s interesting about that is I was just noticing because I feel like I haven’t had enough hermit time lately. One of the symptoms of that is that I can’t fully concentrate on a conversation because I am spinning or not even spinning, just thinking, thinking about things. And I’ll have to ask my husband to repeat a thing that he just said. And I’ll have to say to myself, give him your full attention or walk out of the room. And I think that is symptomatic of me not having enough time to myself to process things.

Renae: Well, in that, that conversation with ourselves. Right. I think that that’s a that might be a skill, that reflective skill. Um, while, while we may have built it, if we’re in the pace of things where there isn’t space for us to to debate ourselves and to think through and to engage in critical thinking and to go through problem solving versus asking an AI. Um, but instead, I mean, I think, I think that’s a really important thing to create that space for ourselves. And that is a gift we can give others to also create that. So the, I just remember even the, I mean, not to make this a, I’m not anti-technology by any means, and I’m not, you know, I don’t want that to turn into that conversation. But I do recall the first sleepover that my youngest had for one of her birthday parties. And in the written invitations, yes, I sent written invitations for her to take to her friends for the people who are coming to sleepover, because the invitation was to them and their parents.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: And I said, I’m just letting you know the girls will not have access to their devices during the the sleepover. That will be in a basket if you need to reach them. Well, we will see it and we will hand them the phone. But we we this is a no device sleepover. And, uh, when one of the moms dropped her daughter, off she goes. You’re so brave.

Laura: That’s great. And they came in nineteen ninety nine.

Renae: And I just had a basket as they came in the door. And then someone’s like, just to put my iPad in here too. And I’m like, why did you bring an iPad to a sleepover? Are you doing some accounting? Like, what’s going on? Like what? And I was like, uh, nothing good, nothing good. That’s what is going to happen. So no, no, it’s not happening. And now, granted, these were like seventh graders. Okay. So it’s like the worst time for them to have access to the internet while they’re together.

Laura: Right?

Renae: Um, but that whole thing and I just remembering that the, the gal who, uh, who complained the most at like eleven at night because we’re sitting in the front room because that’s where they were, they’re all, they’re going to get ready for bed eventually. Um, but we’re sitting in the front room and she goes, oh, this is just really wild. We’re like just sitting here talking. I’ve not done this before.

Renae: I haven’t done this before.

Laura: That’s great.

Renae: And then they, they naturally, I never talked to them about there being pillow fights at a sleepover, but they literally had a pillow fight. Like it was a whole it was just fun stuff, you know, just.

Laura: Being.

Renae: Big dorks and, um, but I think that even that part of, um, noticing what our patterns are And I think where, where, you know, there might be this um. I don’t want to say stigma about saying that I, I need space, um, instead of instead of there being a, a negative connotation to that, thinking of it as like, oh, that’s a healthy balance like that. We as humans need connection and we need our space. So we need connection and we need our space and strong connections. We’re still connected even if we’re not in proximity.

Laura: Yeah. One of the questions that I think we’ve kind of talked around, but I would love to talk about a more direct answer that that you had identified in the workbook that accompanies this, uh, hermit series is what does the hermit want from me? I think that’s a really fascinating question. So when you think about that, about your inner hermit, what do you think the hermit is wanting for you.

Laura: Um.

Renae: Definitely there is a protection of a, a full acceptance of self. And so there is this, um, I’m not too much for myself. I’m not too quiet for myself. I’m not too whatever for myself. And so in some ways it’s to create space for me just to be. And I think we get in, we, we are such, um, culturally focused on doing, producing, consuming, um, even experiencing, which is actually still different than being.

Laura: Mhm. Mhm.

Renae: And so for that’s, that part of it is, looms large. The other part definitely is protection. Like this is my go to protection place. Um, and I was, uh, I have a visual in my head that was given to me by someone else that said, um, that when, when you go into your protection place, you draw, you pull the drawbridge up, you double the troops surrounding the castle and you go to your panic room. And I do think that there is a piece of that that is like I, it’s, it’s true. It’s not just overwhelm or burnout or compassion fatigue when it comes to this. It is very much a, um, I, I don’t feel, I don’t feel safe to engage and I’m going to just go retreat in my library of books until I can regulate myself.

Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Yeah, I, I feel that too. I it for me, it feels more of like an exhaustion. Like I’ve definitely been guilty of saying like, I wish everyone could go away and never come back and just leave me alone as, as like, sometimes that can be a refrain in my mind. Just leave me alone. But it is kind of the same thing of just like a drawing, a putting up a wall and a being behind it. And just like, okay, now we don’t have to deal with that thing.

Laura: Well.

Renae: And, and I think too, that there’s, I mean, this does overlap with the compassion fatigue and burnout conversation in a lot of ways, because we’re talking about the exhaustion of the capacity to care, the capacity to engage. And and so again, it’s the are we are if we’re having a reaction, it’s from a survival place. But if we’re, we’re choosing either a rhythm or we’re intentionally saying, oh, I’m noticing that I could fall into a reaction here. And so I’m going to choose to give myself that space before it becomes, um, a, you know, a downstairs brain command.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: Um, there’s an intention to it. And so we can be proactive and create rhythms where we’re intentionally setting up that space for ourselves or we might fall into a reaction. And one thing that I did last month at this month, um, we’re in April right at the moment, but I also did it for, for May is I, um, blocked out four days of the month that said no meetings, Just no meetings, even though their work days. And even though their days that people might want meetings, I’m not doing meetings. And I let everybody know I’m turning off the notifications on my phone and I’m just sort of not available. I’ll be working, but I’m not available.

Laura: Right.

Renae: And the freedom, um, that, that, that I felt from that of just saying, I just, it’s not even that to concentrate, it’s just I needed to not be needed.

Laura: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like sometimes that can get, being needed can get really exhausting. I enjoy working on Sundays a lot because no one else is like, like professionally, like no one else is online. No one’s sending me emails. People aren’t even that. People are nice. People aren’t even demanding. But still, just the absence of people making requests or saying or even just sharing something like, it’s just so nice to have a day to just work on stuff where I don’t have to worry about somebody texting or emailing me a request.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: And so in a, if we had, if we had rhythms and we had balance, um, and, and this is one of your ways of creating that for yourself, I think. Right. And, um, and if, if we had that baked into our schedules, into our patterns, into our routines, um, then we might catch it earlier, right? We might, we might, um, or circumvent it by saying, um, it’s okay, I have that time. And I noticed that for myself too, where I was like, oh, I really want to do this thing. But you know what? I, I blocked off time to work on that on this particular day. And so it’s okay that I don’t work on it today. Like I have time set aside for that. So, um, what is, uh, one gentle reframe, if you could think of a, a reframe for how we might be extending self-compassion, um, to ourselves when we, when we want to hermit. Um, how would you maybe articulate that?

Laura: Well.

Laura: I would think of it as, I guess I would reframe it as, you know, this is the time that I need that is that is necessary for me to have a full battery. And everyone, including myself, deserves for me to have a full battery. And so I, I would never need to feel bad about that because I’m serving myself and everyone around me by, by being at my best.

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: I think for me, the, the language I’ve been using lately is I’m taking care of future me.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: And this is a gift for future me. Um, and so, so with that, um, as we, as we wrap up for, um, week one of the hermit, um, and in the parts project inviting you to engage with the micro journey. Um, and the, if you want to go deeper than that, we have the workbook as well, but that micro journey is a free download. You can either download it directly or in opt in for the three week email series. Um, that we’ll just give it to you one at a time. Um, as these episodes drop as well. And so I want to thank you, Laura, so much for coming out of the cave, uh, to come.

Laura: Right. Yeah.

Laura: And you know what? I would also invite, um, you as a listener to give us some. You know, when you work through these questions, like what things are you discovering? And I would especially be interested and fascinated to hear from those people who don’t love finding solitude, who find that to be somewhat of a burden like my daughter. I’m really interested in, um, in your take on this as well. So send us a note.

Laura: Absolutely.

Renae: Well, thanks so much for being here, Laura.

Laura: All right. Thank you. See you next time.