Healthy Relationships Aren’t That Fragile

Renae: So today we had scheduled to talk about or had put out to talk about, um, healthy relationships.

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: Um, and there’s a phrase, there’s a phrase that I learned at a training a few years ago, um, from a therapist that was on staff at this place I went to and the, the, um, her name is Hannah, but I don’t remember her last name. I think it’s Hannah. I’m gonna have to look it up. I want to make sure it’s attributed correctly. Uh, but her, the quote is healthy relationships aren’t that fragile. And I have used that so much in the last week and a half in conversations with some people talking about, you know, the the boundaries, you know, are are we boundaries versus requests and resentments and um, even the, the pieces of um, how our how our brains and bodies, actually our heart, mind, body and soul end up breaking down because we hold all this anger and resentment. And it’s not because of uncommunicated expectations. It’s because they’re misdirected expectations about how things are going to go and having a really hard time, as we’ve talked about grief and loss, but just the getting to that place of acceptance and then what is what is my slice to own in in all of this. And so when I say that phrase, um, healthy relationships aren’t that fragile. What does that bring up for you?

Laura: I really love that. It reminds me of, um, well, the way that my parents always were and I try to do for my kids is like it. We’re always going to love you. Like, it doesn’t matter what you do. We’re always going to be here. We’re always going to love you. And you know, whether you make mistakes or make wrong choices or whether you’re not doing what we want you to do. I mean, and we’ll tell you like, that was not going to be a secret, but at the at the root of all of that, we’re still your parents, and you can still count on us for anything. So it’s funny, in light of, um, just events being difficult in, um, our lives right now, how we come into conflict with these people that we love and, and in my case in particular, I’m able to I mean, I get mad and I like, like there might be some arguments, but I never in my mind think to myself, I’m never going to speak to that person again in my family, or I’m going to walk away from this like, that’s not even something that registers with me. Um, and so it does give me that. I think what you’re saying, like, encapsulates this relationship that I do have with my family, and that makes me feel really grateful to have that.

Renae: Yeah. And the, um, I, I my goal, my goal for how I am in this world, there’s several nuances and several different, you know, levels of values and the way that it plays out plays out. But there’s in in one of my businesses, I sign every single email with unconditional positive regard. And I actually do mean that that is my goal is that I’m going to do my best to assume the best about people, and to be curious as to why they’re doing what they’re doing versus judging versus labeling. And, um, you know, assuming that that they are doing the best that they can. And I would love for that to be extended to me too. But that’s okay. If it’s not, it is by the people who matter. Um, in, in, in in my view of where I find comfort and safety in the world. But I think your point of, um. You know, when when I think of that phrase, um, healthy relationships aren’t that fragile. It’s so funny. I don’t even think about my family. I think about my healthy friendships. Um, and part of it’s because I have such lovely dysfunction in my family and not my immediate family. Well, there is plenty of dysfunction in my immediate family, too, but, um, but in my extended family, I just even remember when I was younger and somebody said something and I was like, oh yeah, we all sort of don’t keep up with each other. Like we’re all over the world. We’re a bunch, we’re a bunch of military people. And I think that is has something to do with it too. Is that you? If you, um, if eighty five percent of your family is military and they’re preparing for the event of war, you might not put a whole lot of time into developing attachment. And so we are detached. We are very detached. Um, and so that it’s just funny. Like, I don’t even I don’t even think about that except with my with my husband. Yes. And I have that conversation with him because we come from, you know, two different backgrounds, two different models of, of marriage. And, um, I, I don’t know if you’ve picked up on this, but I happen to just like to say what I think and feel about things.

Laura: I maybe have noticed that.

Renae: And when I and I’ve and I’ve learned over the years, too, that people in general don’t like, um, what my birth mother would call a helpful Hannah, which is the person who’s like, you should do this, or you could do that, that people like to be asked. And so it’s spending a lot of time times they. Are you venting? Did you want solutions? Let me know what my role is here. But there will be times when we’ll hit a crux where I’ve like. We can’t exist in this dynamic anymore. And so I’m going to have to say something hard. And it’s not hard. It’s firm. It’s firm. But I, um, I think to my credit, I say I’m going to say something, and it has a potential to hurt your feelings. I’m trying to prepare you. Because I, I’m a I’m aware that you may take it as a because of history, genetics, whatever you may take it as a, as a personal condemnation. But it’s that’s not what it’s meant. It is meant to to just as you’re talking. We were talking earlier about You’re trying to provide some clarity for someone that you see is looped in a spiral. And so I think that for me, it’s always been hard to figure out where that trust piece is and that it has been in those relationships where we’ve been had a had a rupture and repair that that’s how that’s, to me is a signal that it’s a healthy relationship. If I’m not allowed to bring up a problem, if I if I can’t push back, if I can’t say I don’t necessarily agree with that or, oh, I experienced that very differently. That’s not a healthy relationship.

Laura: Yeah, I think that’s that rings really true to me too. I mean, it’s kind of like you have the relationship, the health of the relationship is like a firm foundation. And maybe you’re doing some demo on the walls and we know, like paint and painting and, uh, putting in an addition. But like, the foundation is firm, so there could be some scuttlebutt on top, but underneath it all, that’s not going to go away. When you, um, when you talk to people or when you like, set these boundaries with people and let them know, you know, what you’re about to say, may or they may or may not take it personally. What are the reactions that you get to that? Like how does that how do those conversations go?

Renae: Um, I actually say it as a form of a, of a checking for consent to be perfectly like in thinking about it and saying what the purpose is, not just to prepare them, but it’s also a I’m going to say something, or are you in the biological space? Are you, are you, are you activated so that you’re going to be reactive or are you able to actually hear it? And so there is a little bit of like litmus test in that, um, that if they’re like, I can’t hear and so I can’t hear it. And I have said that to my husband as well, although lately it’s coming out like this, I don’t care. Like, he’ll say something to me and I’ll be like, I don’t care. And he’s like, oh, I’m like, I didn’t say I didn’t care about you. Of all the things in the world for me to care about, I don’t care about that right now. These are the things I care about. I don’t have energy to care about that.

Laura: You have to prioritize your energy at this time.

Renae: But I think, um. When I’m with people that I am a little further, that are a little further outside of my circle, I will tend to say it a little, say like so I have something to say that might be a little challenging. Are you in a place that you can hear this right now? Right. So it it but it really is a it is a consent piece, I think, because nobody signed up to be trauma triggered or dysregulated. You know, like people don’t say oh come upset me. Right. So, so if.

Laura: I bring your.

Laura: Criticism, I can’t wait to hear it.

Renae: I know. Well, in in on my end, I firmly own the, the, um, rejection sensitivity piece of my ADHD. I had no idea it was there until I was talking with other people and and found out they don’t have a physiological, painful response to criticism. Like, it’s physically devastating. If it’s. Not if it’s done well, but when it’s just offhand or it’s done poorly, it’s like it, it it’s like I squish. It hurts.

Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Yeah. Interesting. I think about times when I, I mean, this is making me reflect on like times that I’ve had. So my primary relationship I call is my, you know, my husband Dan. And at the times that we’ve had the most conflict, I think that’s when we were really misunderstanding the other person’s motivations. And I think often what he would consider or I don’t know, both of us, probably one of us will do a thing and the other person will say, oh, well, they’re doing that because they don’t care about me, because they know that I don’t like that, or they know I want this thing to happen. And. uh, that’s I can, I can say pretty much ninety nine point nine percent confidence that we’ve never done something to be like, well, this is going to piss her off. You know, like, you might you might know in the back of your mind that the other person might get upset, but that’s not the sole reason we’re doing it. We’re doing it because we get more benefit out of it than than the, um, you know, detriment of making the other person upset. But I think that for the most case, in the most cases, we’re not even knowing that we’re doing something that’s so upsetting. You know, like the most basic example that I always think of is I’m just not very tidy. And for a long time my husband was taking that as me being not being tidy on purpose, because in his mind, I knew that he liked things clean. And so for me to not keep things clean all the time was a personal, a personal affront to him. You know that I was doing that on purpose. Uncaring. And I what we came to. And I mean, it’s like, that’s a small thing, but, you know, it kind of grows into a bigger thing. And then also it’s representative of a lot of other the lessons that we learned from this cleaning thing can be applied to so many different facets of our relationship. But what what we both learned is that I just don’t see things the same way that he sees things. And to me, something that was fine like that doesn’t even register to me that there’s a dish there where he. That’s all he can see.

Laura: Yeah.

Laura: And so it has taken some concession on both sides for me to really pay more attention to that kind of stuff. And then for him to also be better at letting some of that go. And uh, and that, like I say, has it’s we can apply that lesson to so many things in our, in our interactions. And that has been so helpful for us now. I mean, did it take us fifteen years to learn that? Probably. But it’s like you’re saying like those the the relationship wasn’t was was strong enough.

Laura: To withstand.

Laura: A lot.

Laura: Of years of arguing about who’s doing what and who’s at fault.

Renae: Well, because it’s never it’s never really about the dish. You’re you’re exactly right in that. What what the message the dish sends is I wasn’t thinking about the other person. And so for those of us that have that history of maybe a preoccupied, entangled attachment, meaning we ruminate a lot and we spend a lot of time in the past and thinking and of course, there’s a little bit of my autism is in that as well, but just replaying things. And so I, I spent a lot of time thinking about people and relationships and conversations and all of all of this. And that’s a lot of my survival strategy. It’s a lot of my neurodivergence. And then I get offended because other people aren’t thinking about me as much as I’m thinking about them. But you know what? People are not thinking about me as much as I am thinking about them, because that’s just my brain. But I didn’t know that. So that’s why everything felt like a message. Because forever, I didn’t know that. And that’s not what was communicated to me as a child. It was not what was communicated to me in other Relationships. And so, you know, I yoke myself with this person for ostensibly until I die. And I’m like, did we not get the same rule book? Do you not understand? Oh my God, how do your socks have babies? Your socks have babies they like, sit on the floor and have babies with each other because they just multiply. It is unbelievable. I can’t stand it. I can’t stand bags. I hate bags like grocery bags with stuff in them. Decant. Unpack everything. Don’t leave your wrappers out. Right. These are the list of things and and I have. I really do have to remind myself. This has nothing to do with you. It is. And he has finally got it clear to me he doesn’t see it either. That is not. He is part of his executive dysfunction. It’s part of his own neural pathways. Is he just does like I’ll be like, look at this mess. And he’s like, what are you talking about? He’s like, I can’t even see it. But part of it is when he does see it, his anxiety spikes the heck up. He gets immobile. And so to protect himself, his brain doesn’t let him see it.

Laura: Right. Isn’t it.

Laura: Interesting? I think that you. Regardless of how a person grows up, it is a learned skill to be able to understand someone else’s motivation. I think that, you know, we say, oh, think about the other person’s perspective. Think about the other person’s point of view. And I, I do think that we sincerely try to do that, but that’s very different from really thinking through what’s motivating another person and understanding that that most likely Is it? Their motivation isn’t to upset you, but I think that’s hard to see because you I think, okay, well, if I look at this from Renae’s perspective, like that’s still me seeing things through. What would motivate me? And I would think, well, I would never say x, y, z to someone, so I don’t know why. I don’t know why she’s doing it, but that’s not that’s not truly understanding the other person, which I think is really, really difficult. And it’s really you have to have your own shit straight to be able to or.

Renae: Straight ish as straight as you can get it. To be able to do that, you know.

Laura: You have to know the other person or at least know someone like them, because everyone is so different that sometimes if you understand one person and know them really well, it can be difficult to. You can’t just pick that up and translate it to the next person. The same way you can’t translate your own motivations to the next person. So to me, it’s a really fascinating thing to think about.

Renae: Yeah, that’s that openness. Um, the older I have become, the more I know what I know and the more I know that what I don’t know. And there’s, there’s this whole piece of, I don’t know, could be perhaps, I mean, the things that I know, like, I know like to my core, I know. And they’re not going to be, uh, like I am worthy of respect. That’s an immovable thing. It did not always live in me. It sure does. Now you can’t like that’s not going to move. There’s nothing’s ever going to change that. Who? You know how that’s expressed to me. I could experience that in different ways from different people. And and it’s not just one thing. When I was growing up, it would be respect equals authority. That is not what it means to me anymore. It is worthy of being seen, heard and valued. That’s it. I get to take up space. I get to be. I get to be important. I get to have a voice. I get to be seen. I don’t have to squish myself into a tiny little ball to fit in or to be not be seen. Um, and so the when I get, when I get resentful is when I have an interaction in a relationship where that is pushed against and if especially if it’s somebody who I, I know well and I’m like, you know, like that is not how I play. Like. Like, no, you don’t try to put me into this little box or don’t try to make me smile or don’t try to whatever. Because it’s it’s trying to put me back to a place where I was unhealthy and I don’t want to. I don’t want to be there. And and that’s where I’ll start to get kind of like indignant, um, in that. And so I think there is a, the sense of, um, can, can a relationship take me saying that didn’t feel good. That wasn’t okay. Um, I, I’m not. And this is the part where like boundaries versus requests come in, I think, is that I’m not hanging out in spaces where people do that. To me, that’s a boundary. You can’t treat me like that is a request. And that was hard for me to get to that place to to recognize. I can say that all day long. You can’t treat me like that. It doesn’t mean anything. I have no control over them. All I have control over is if I am, I going to hang out in that space?

Laura: Yeah. I think to further that point, another complication about healthy relations relationships is that it takes two people, you know, like, you know, how much hard work it is for you to put yourself in this other person’s shoes and understand what their why they’re doing, what they’re doing, and then they have to be willing to do the same thing for you to really make it work, which I think is sometimes the heartbreaking part. Right? Because sometimes you’re not going to get that participation from everyone.

Renae: Right? Right. And I think there to your point of you, in order to do this. You kind of have to have a like some clear space, some capacity, some margin, some some some room to ruminate, to think, to be, to ponder, to examine. And we don’t necessarily leave that space in our lives very well when we’re in this production hustle, culture, space. You know, um, thing that we’re, we’re all, all of us are guilty of, of getting locked into, uh, where relationship, uh, definitely falls underneath task. And, um, and when we when I say that to people too, I, I keep coming back to even this, this particular season, that relationship over, you know, like over task, which is a like a, a mantra. Your relationship to yourself actually is probably the number one. And we’re we’re not great at that. Now that’s by design. Again, there’s like we’ve talked before about there’s like people in rooms who are who spend their lives trying to figure out how to make you feel insecure. Not enough. Too much. All these different things and all these messaging is coming at you all the time to keep you distracted from actually being able to to sit and focus and do this work for yourself. Um, or there’s the the labels of you need to be a caregiver. You need, you know, you gotta forget yourself and elevate everyone else. Uh, yeah. Yes. And and we gotta start at home. Right? We gotta start with ourselves first. So when in some, in some ways that healthy relationships aren’t that fragile, it is. How can can you have that same conversation with yourself? That you would with somebody else. Can you say, okay, listen, here are all the things that you could be doing right now. And when you think about that, how does that feel?

Laura: Yeah. And how do you take personal responsibility for your own for what you are bringing to this? You know, I found it helpful in the past to. Well, it’s an a ask myself, um, you know, like who do who do I need to be for this? Not to bother me. What am I bringing into this that’s making me so upset? And then another thing that I’ve found helpful, helpful in the past, especially when I know that something isn’t doesn’t like that a person is hurting from a different source. That has nothing to do with me, but I’m just taking some of the shrapnel from that. It’s just to say, like, who do I who, How can I best support this person through this? You know, like, how am I going to bring the best out of that person? Like, who do I what do I need to do to bring the best out in that person? And that brings a comfort for me. And because it gets me out of this loop of why are they acting like that? I didn’t do anything right. I mean, sometimes I have, but like, you know, there have been really specific examples where, you know, like someone was ill and that person was upset by it, you know, like just outside circumstances that no one can control and they’re just not handling it that well and you’re getting the brunt of it. I think instead of looping yourself into this isn’t my fault, like, okay, well, how do I build up my own resilience to be able to support this person through what is clearly a very challenging time for them? Um.

Renae: And I, I think it’s that practicing a check with yourself regularly to say, what can I what is mine to hold and do I have room to hold something for someone else? Right. That’s because if we if we don’t do that check and we feel like, well, I, I’m supposed to I have this obligation, I have this function, I have this relationship, I, I don’t want people to be in distress. Yes. And if if you’re dropping the stuff that you need for yourself to pick up someone else’s, that’s not healthy.

Laura: Right. How do you keep your reserves high enough that when you need to dole them out.

Renae: To somebody else.

Laura: You have them there?

Renae: Right.

Renae: Well, and and also the the like I don’t even. I want to have. And I want to. I just want to be really, um, clear that when people are when there are crisis situations, um, all helpers have to put themselves to the side for the, for the crisis and enter into the reality of what is happening. And you really do depersonalize that is what good helpers do in the midst of a crisis. Helpers that sustain have figured out how do I get back in touch with myself and make sure that I am replenished? And and that that, um. I think it’s just that balance of I don’t do I don’t do self-care so I can care for other people. I do self-care now in my life because I am worthy of care. Period. I am worthy of care. And me to be a good caregiver means I keep that baseline of care for myself. That then gives me all of the capacity, you know, the, um, access to my strategies, my capacities, my other resources so that I, I’m going to able to be sustainably showing up. Right. And that part I think is my it’s like my next evolution of understanding for myself what I need. And in my healthy relationships, there’s no ones upset when I take care of myself. I think that’s a huge marker for me.

Laura: Yeah. I always think of it as kind of similar, but a different twist of like me doing what’s best for me is getting me what I want, which is for me to feel good and for me to be able to support the other people that need me to support them. Yeah.

Renae: So what are the things that you need for you in order to have that that baseline of needs being met?

Laura: I would say that there are some really basic things that like sleep enough sleep is really important for me, which I mean, I guess it’s not, um, stupid, but it almost kind of like, you know what I mean? Like, I feel like part of me is like, okay, I need to, like, think really deeply about how I feel and understand my own motivations. And that is true. But I also just need to sleep enough. I need to have enough alone time to process things because I’m very introverted. Um, and so I think those are two just, like, non-negotiables for me. I need some time to be alone. And I need eight hours plus of sleep every night. Mhm. And then when I have those things, then I can do deeper work like discussions like this, meditating, um, studying things like the Yoga Sutras, you know, journaling, all of that kind of deep work stuff or taking time to like, that kind of stuff helps me recognize when I’m not firing on all cylinders. And then I can take the time to delve into why that might be, so that I could course correct a little bit. What about you?

Renae: Yeah, it’s there is a lot of that same. Um. I need, I need that that restoration for myself. Um. I need the, um, margin to. Be without interruption. Which is, like, hilarious because someone, like, just had walked in to talk to me while you were talking, so I was trying to figure out what was going on. But the I think, um. Um, the, the rest piece of it, I, you know, I just did not sleep well for most of my life. Um, and when I, when I was overseas, at one point, um, studying, I was writing in my journal about how when I was in Italy, I almost felt like when I was sleeping, I, I was leaving my body, my dream self was leaving. And I had a very strong tether to me, but was like floating all throughout the city and just exploring and being and how wild it was for me to have enough. And at the time I wouldn’t know that it was called felt safety, but I had enough felt safety that I could actually go and explore while I was sleeping. Um, and so that particular piece of of rest is really important time by myself. I really I love being with people, I really do. Relationship is really important to me and. Thank you. Uh, I need to be by myself a lot. Um, and I’m not I don’t I wouldn’t necessarily call myself an introvert. I just burn through my energy really quick when I’m with people. But I don’t think that’s it’s I think that’s more of from my neurodivergence of trying to like this. Interactions are hard, right. And so it takes a lot of concentration to be present. Um. But I really do like alone time. I maybe I am a I don’t know, I have said to somebody recently and I have said this many times in my life, I think I could just go be in a monastery. Monastic life. The woman who’s like, in the wall where there’s like that little window where people come and visit and bring food and like, come and talk to her. I actually I really feel like zoom does that for me. For one.

Renae: It’s your window to the. It’s my window to the world.

Renae: And if.

Renae: Someone.

Renae: Could just slide food under the door and, um, I actually probably could be a little kind of. Okay.

Renae: So maybe I am an introvert. I don’t know. Um.

Renae: But I, um. No, because I really like being around the people. I really like being around the people I love. I don’t, I like big crowds. Doesn’t bother me as long as we’re all in spiritual agreement. Meaning there’s not a big fight happening. Um, you know, I don’t know.

Laura: Um, yeah, I have.

Laura: I mean, I there are people that I love hanging around with that, and we, I can have the greatest time and laugh and hang around and and never feel like, oh, I gotta get away from people. But at the end of it, I’m very tired.

Renae: There is a.

Laura: More energy from being like, I renew my energy by being by myself.

Renae: Yeah, I, I think I charge two different batteries, right. So I think that that’s part of it. I think there’s one battery that’s charged by being with the people and then one that’s charged by being alone. Um, and for me, the, the practice, I have my daily practice of going through heart, mind, body and soul and faith. That is really important for me to come to alignment, to come to to peace. And then as I’m doing these check ins, I’m checking to see what capacity I have in those areas each day. And so you’ll see it. You won’t see, but people can if when I die and someone reads my journals, um, it’ll say like, oh, I think like I’m this is how I’m feeling or what I’m experiencing. I’m going to have to make sure I do this today to make to scaffold myself. I’m going to need it. I need to get to bed by this time, or I need more water, or I don’t know if I can organize my brain today. I’m. And I just keep writing. Like be gentle with yourself. And so after this forty five minutes to an hour practice, I then can go into the day and and have a better idea of what it is I can and can’t do. And I know it sounds probably to people who are listening like a freaking luxury. And it That totally is. It is, but not. But. And it is how I have to craft my life for where it. Laura. You know, the the level of chaos and trauma and dysfunction that I have been through in the last year plus and in order to function. This is the practice that I need to do.

Laura: Yeah, I think I mean, that’s just it’s just plain survival skill.

Renae: Yeah.

Renae: It doesn’t feel like survival. Survival.

Laura: Maybe it’s keeping you from being in total survival.

Renae: It is keeping me from being in survival because total survival mode would probably just end up being like seventeen cups of coffee, right? Because and like, loud death metal playing to make me work, right? Like, like that to me, feels a little more survival. This. This is keeping me from being in this. Is that. Um, structure and nurture that I need, um, in order to be able to to engage. And, um. And it’s not, it’s it isn’t a luxury. It is a necessity for me to be able to function as a human, not as a machine.

Laura: Yeah. I think that’s why I was saying, well, it’s survival. That’s where I was thinking that it’s just like a thing that needs to happen, just like sleep. That’s like a thing that needs to happen. Yeah. To. I mean, just to regulate your nervous system.

Renae: Right.

Laura: So that you can then function at your best, even considering what’s going on around you.

Renae: Well, I think I’m inspired to create a tool. So by the time this goes up, there’ll be a tool in the show notes. That will be a check in with yourself to figure out what it is that you need. What is your baseline that you need in order to be able to do the type of humaning relationshipping that you want to do? So we’ll put that in there. Anything else before we end the session today?

Laura: No, this is a good one. Thanks for having me.

Renae: Awesome. Thanks, Laura.