Are You Sure That’s the Full Truth? A Script for the Perfectionist Spiral

Renae: I don’t spend a lot of time on Facebook posts because they’re just ad spammy and they’re like, depressing. Um,

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: but the but I like to watch the reels. And so every once in a while it gets the algorithm actually gets me and sends me pictures of watercolor or send me videos of watercolor painting. Um, so I had to speak it loudly so it would hear me, but, um, the, the, um, I’ve been watching all the Christmas like, you know, here’s how to do these cute watercolor cards and stuff like that. I think, It would be really fun to do a session of, Like a painting session to say, like, yes, you can paint.

Laura: Yeah, yeah, I follow, um, if you ever get bored, you can look up Andrea Nelson Art,

Renae: Okay.

Laura: and she does a really good job of just, like, being, like, paint five blobs, and then she shows you how to make them into a pumpkin, or.

Renae: Nice.

Laura: You know what I mean? Like, it’s great. It’s easy. Anybody can do it. And she’s so cute.

Renae: Is she. Does she have glasses and wear her

Laura: Yes,

Renae: hair to the side?

Laura: she’s

Renae: Yep. So.

Laura: very popular. So you probably have.

Renae: She did a wreath the other day that I was like, oh, I am so inspired. Um, because it was like pink wash and then like a green blue leaves. And she was just it was like, grab a lid, make a circle.

Laura: Yes,

Renae: I

Laura: yes.

Renae: was like, oh, yeah, you’re great. So yeah, that type

Laura: All

Renae: of

Laura: right.

Renae: well, I think that like, there’s something actually really important in that that does tie in with our, our conversation about perfectionism. Um, and this what’s being modeled for us that we’re drawn to is someone saying it? It really doesn’t. It isn’t perfect. There is no perfect. And I think

Laura: Right.

Renae: watercolor as a medium, um, you can’t control water.

Laura: Yeah. It has such a. It’s almost like it’s so flowy. And that’s okay.

Renae: Right.

Laura: You know, like, I was looking up pictures of, um. So my, the same friend, she’s the one I went to Italy with. And so I got a picture of us in Italy, and I’m going to try to paint like olives and figs around a watercolor paper, like as a matte background. And like, there were a lot of them that were really detailed. But then there’s a lot of them that just are like fig shapes. And I’m like, that’s for me,

Renae: Right?

Laura: you know? And you still can tell what it is

Renae: Right.

Laura: if

Renae: And I think

Laura: your brain

Renae: that’s

Laura: fills in a lot of it.

Renae: well, and I think the, um, I mean, I certainly was in, um, high school really drawn to the Impressionists and probably for that reason, like what,

Laura: Um.

Renae: the evoking of a feeling or a thought or, um, introducing a, you know, here’s a representation of it, but it’s not an exact replica. Um,

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: and that there’s something that’s a dialogue with that, like you’re painting a to have a dialogue with the viewer because they’re going to add meaning and shape and and definition and lines. And so there’s something

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: actually really beautiful about not saying, you know, here’s a photographic like version of something. It is a this is my interpretation and my impression or my feeling about this thing.

Laura: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s actually like I’m going through this, um, like as you’re talking, I’m just cleaning up this, um, workbook formatting. And that was the one I was formatting right when you were talking is like a task done imperfectly

Renae: Great.

Laura: like that. Right?

Renae: Right.

Laura: It’s depression.

Renae: Well, and it could be even, um, I don’t know if you, uh, we we did, um, pumpkins like thumbprints that

Laura: Oh,

Renae: we turned.

Laura: yeah.

Renae: Remember that were you

Laura: Yes.

Renae: take thumbprints and then you turn them into things

Laura: Make them something. Yeah.

Renae: And there are even that piece of it. that’s very, um, like it’s your thumbprint.

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: You know, it’s you it’s it’s wavy and swirly and not in a pattern, per se. And you can’t control it because you don’t know exactly how that thumbprint is going to land. And what can you make from that?

Laura: Yeah. Yeah. Right. So then the exercise is more about like interpreting the thumbprint than it is about making something perfect out of it.

Renae: Right. Yeah. So and I and isn’t that I, I remember, um, gosh, I was a senior in high school, um, in a, in a performing arts high school, and, um, at the senior banquet or the end of the year banquet, I was one of the applicants to, to to give a speech and yeah, it it was in retrospect, I wish I’d, I’d landed the ending better, but, um, because

Laura: Well,

Renae: I,

Laura: you

Renae: remember the whole thing. Um, but what I got up and talked about and, and, you know, we’re in California and we had, I would say twenty five percent of the student population was already were already professional artists, um, and in their childhood and, um, many of them have gone on to. Do really big things. And, um, I remember being a little nervous because I got up and talked about how the product was not the important thing,

Laura: Uh.

Renae: that the process was actually what was the most important. And

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: that’s a little opposite of commercial art,

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: you know. Um.

Laura: But, like, you need the process to get the product, I

Renae: Right.

Laura: think is what’s the most interesting. I don’t know, it’s almost, like, counterintuitive, but it’s not. But it kind of is.

Renae: Well, and so what’s interesting to me is that the people who got the process are have huge careers now, have huge careers, right? Because their, their,

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: their success did not come until now. And it’s been thirty plus years.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: Um, and it’s partly because they were working on their craft and it was they they couldn’t have gotten there. So there were a bunch of people who had early success driven by, you know, just somewhat natural talent that had had

Laura: Just

Renae: some.

Laura: raw talent. Yeah.

Renae: Right. And so I think that that’s part of our, um, when we’re making friends with our. Perfectionist, it’s that, um, the. The idea that it’s not, um, it there’s not the instant gratification, I think, in it and that when we’re seeing other people succeed at something when we haven’t, we don’t have that foundation. Um, then it’s we can’t like, I think let me back up. I think part of the problem with the perfectionist is, is that it comes with a comparison. There’s some standard. There’s some standard that we are holding ourselves to that is the perfect. And it’s probably, as we’ve talked about before, not fully our voice that saying what the standard is. So part of it is that part of in our healing and what we’re going to do with it is that new narrative. Of whose voice are we listening to?

Laura: Yeah, yeah. And I think that goes along with, you know, what you’re saying about showing up for the process when you can let go of the product, your your perfectionist wants to hold on to that product so tightly and wants it to be perfect and and doesn’t want to try to do it. If it can’t get the exact product and result that it wants. And so I think some of the work of integrating this of, of making your perfectionist your ally is reassuring it that the perfection is in showing up for the process every day, even though the process looks looks a little bit messy.

Renae: Yeah.

Laura: But that that’s what offers compounding results over time is the showing up the the, um, the continual practice. You know, I don’t know if you’ve seen this, but like Jerry Seinfeld says that he has a chain where he writes jokes every single day and he’s like, you know, you just don’t break the chain. You just show up every day and you write jokes every single day, and you and you never. Or that’s the habit that you have. And some of them suck and some of them are amazing. And but you have, you know, three hundred and sixty five days worth of jokes to choose from when you’re, you know, at any point in time. And I think that is a big part of this integration work,

Renae: Yeah.

Laura: though of the end result.

Renae: Yeah. And so for you, as you’ve been thinking about going through these last three weeks of, um, you know, the awareness and the healing and, and looking at the integration, um, and I noticed that you’ve already talked about it a little bit in the painting. Right. Where we started this conversation about the watercolors and that, you know, the I, I, I saw your pad. You did a bunch of different animals, which are adorable. And my thought was, I saw those and I thought, oh, you could just cut those out and put those on a card. Like, literally there’s like, that would be great. And and you know, so for for me, there was no need for it to be perfect. But you’re. But what you’re saying, which is absolutely right, is this is my practice and and I’m probably not going to get to it. Perfect. Because it is watercolor. Um,

Laura: Right?

Renae: but I’m going to get to this part where I’m going to feel content. I’m going to feel like, yeah, this is this is the expression that I, I wanted to and it’s not going to look like anyone else’s. Like no one else is going to paint what you are, are painting, just

Laura: Right.

Renae: you.

Laura: Yeah, yeah. You know, it’s come up for me, too. And so the my art practice is easy for me because I have no expectations for what it’s going to be. I’m not trying to make money at it. I’m not trying to become an artist. So that is I don’t want to call it cheating, but, I mean, it is a helpful practice in that way because it’s easy for me to let go of the outcome because I don’t have an expectation of one. But recently I, um, have I just started I’ve tried to for the last maybe twelve months, like have an online, um, business. And um, that was around like some, like an AI workflow and it has had several iterations. And part of the issue is I can’t ever get it exactly the way I want it before I launch it. And even when I have launched it, an iteration of it in the past, it has. If it doesn’t do as well as I want it to, then I just quit and move on to something else. And I know this has come up in our conversation before because it’s like the theme of my life. But what I’ve been able to do with these conversations that we’ve had and and with this, you know, this workbook work is to I just launched another iteration of it, maybe like fifteen days ago. And I have I keep saying to myself, you’re just you’re going to build the plane while you’re flying it, and that’s just going to be okay. And the worst thing that can happen is somebody buys it and they hate it, and you just give them back their money. Like, I keep having to talk myself into that. And and I keep saying that it’s going to be okay to go back and, quote, fix it, whatever it might be. You know, instead of letting all of these pieces be in place, even though I’m, you know, I, I can run as I’m not a super expert. I set up a funnel and in high level, I’m not an expert at that either, but I’m just learning it as I’m doing it. And I have to allow myself to actually do that. And it has been this has been the most successful. It has been. I’ve sold three products, which to me is is a million, you know, like the first one is like the greatest. And right now it’s still just breaking even, which is totally fine. And this would not have happened if I had not just said to myself, I have to just do it. And I, I have also this whole process has had me in such an awareness of my perfectionist where I have an email support for this product, and I was noticing that I was afraid to open it up because I was afraid that someone. I’m almost afraid that someone would buy it. And then, oh my gosh, what happens then? And then I started being afraid of opening up the support email. And then I did open up the support email and oh my God, there was an actual email from the customer. And I was just like, kind of freaking out. And then I said to myself, you haven’t even read this email yet. Like what? Just, you know, relax and see what it says. And the person was just like, do I need a new high level account or can I use the one I already have to set this up? And I was like, oh, well, you can use the one you already have. The snapshot will work. And so ever since then I just keep I, I have to really pause to say, what are you afraid of about opening up this email and then just talking to that perfectionist about where’s this fear coming from? And then be like, it’s okay, we’re going to do this together. We’re going to read this email, and nothing bad is going to happen to us.

Renae: Right? Right. And I will offer you and our listeners, this reframe is um, in the inner in the iterations. You said, well, what’s you know, if it’s that, if I put it out there and it doesn’t work the way I want it to, then I can fix it. I would say improve it.

Laura: Right.

Renae: Right? Because it is as it is. And it’s okay as it is. You can just improve it because

Laura: Absolutely.

Renae: at some part of it works. Because even if it even putting the idea out there like this is like so deep in me. Um, putting the idea out there is a, it’s like an expression and then it’s also an inspiration for you and others to continue to put ideas out there. And so even if it’s not fully formed, we are better together. We’re better for ourselves. If we start, if we start

Laura: Yes.

Renae: and we take that step forward and we say, okay, let’s let’s just start here and then we build on it

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: just we’re we’re building on it, we’re improving it, but it does. It’s not broken even if it’s not doing the thing that we want it to do. It’s not

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: broken. Just like human beings aren’t broken bonkers when people are like, Oh, that there’s such broken people. And it’s like, you know what? We’re we are. We’re damaged. But we are not broken.

Laura: Right?

Renae: We we are in a healing process. And if

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: we get to the part where we’re feeling like we’re, you know, we have wellness, we can improve that. We can add strength and and so we’re it’s just we’re just adding to it. And so knowing that just like we’ve talked before, that the part of where the practice of yoga has um, for me, um, and I think for you too has, has taught me that there is no there, there. I, I’m never going to finish the pose and

Laura: Yes.

Renae: I have to come to peace with that. And as I’m, as I’m doing that, as I’m coming to the edge of my poses and and reminding myself not to force, and I am all the time remind my students not to force. If we force, we might complete something, but not without damage. Because my our

Laura: Right.

Renae: our bodies are telling us, wait, there’s something to learn here. There’s a capacity or there’s a there’s a moment or there’s something here for me where I’m at right now. And building that awareness and saying, this is actually part of me, this is part of my growth. This is part of me. Um, um, continuing to develop my voice, develop my understanding, develop my how. I’m sharing that with the world. And the world needs that. We don’t need a finished product that looks like everything else, or that doesn’t have enough, um, foundation or integrity to, to, to build on, like, we want to be able to continue to inspire ourselves and others. And so we need that foundation. We need the, the, the trying. We need the lessons learned from it and we we just not forcing it. And perfectionism is a bit of a force. And so coming

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: to terms with that and, and when I said the word integrity and in on purpose because integrity ties in with this concept of integration.

Laura: Yes.

Renae: Right. That I’m in I’m in alignment and my, my parts are doing they’re doing something together. Um, so I’m going to stop and drink some coffee.

Laura: Yeah. Well, I appreciate your a couple things. I appreciate your reframe so much because it’s funny that, you know, I’m learning this lesson about being in the process. And you’re right, it’s not about fixing it. It’s about being in the process. It’s about being, you know, showing up every day for that particular product and business and saying, okay, what’s the process today? How am I improving these emails that I’m sending out? How am I proving the product itself. What are people saying? And, you know, like, I should be excited when people send me send me feedback because that lets me be in the process to improve the product. Um, and I was talking the, um, this actually this morning about in my, in my yoga class about this concept called Viveka, which is discernment. And, you know, I think that’s a lot of what you were touching on is like what knowing yourself and and knowing. Is this important or is this not important? How far am I in this pose and where where it’s still serving me, and how far is too far in the post? Like, you know, so just bringing that awareness, um, to a that your perfectionism is showing up, but be like, you know, where is this? Where am I going to let you lead this a little bit because in some cases, perfectionism is doing a good job. It’s raising the standard of your standard of excellence. And then where are you going to also say, okay, well, I just need to be in the process right now and and allow it to play more of a supporting role. You know, that discernment of of what isn’t, isn’t important.

Renae: Right. Well, I, I remember a a photographer and I can’t remember his name. Um, but I was an art at an arts conference, and it was two thousand and five. And he’s like an award winning photographer. And and so he was explaining, he would show a photo and on the screen and everyone was like, ooh. And he’s like, yeah, that’s a great photo. It’s good. But I took a pause and said, is there another way to look at this? And then he’d show another photo from a different perspective in the same place, and they were like, oh, right. And so there’s this part that’s not to me, that wasn’t perfectionism. That was him saying, this is good. And I could stop here and that’s totally fine. Is there one other way that I can look at this? And and I think like giving if, if this is is still tricky to if that discernment muscle has not quite been built. Part of the practice part of the process could be how before I say I’m I’m finishing this process today. Right now, in this moment, uh, or, you know, for the day, I’m going to close out this process for the day and then come back to it tomorrow or whenever. Um, is there x number of times that I can take another look at it and giving yourself that I’m going to take two more looks at it to see if

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: there’s something else. And so whether for me, sometimes that’s setting a timer, um, that’s like this is how much time, more time I’m going to give it and then I’m done.

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: And it’s not a, it’s, it’s a giving myself, um, boundaries to say that I’m aware that something else could come up, and I’m aware that it doesn’t serve me to try to force it. It doesn’t serve me. It doesn’t serve the process. It doesn’t serve the product. And so here’s the I’m giving myself parameters for how much more time I will noodle on it, contemplate it, whatever thing happens to be. And then after that I’m going to be at peace with moving on. Right. And if I have this big breakthrough, then I’m having, then I have the grace of like, oh, you know what? Uh, I’m either going to move something on my schedule because I’m super excited. And it was, you know, like I needed that time or I want to say, I’m going to do it tomorrow or whatever, you know, like to to create the the environment that allows us to, um, create those pockets to give ourselves, um, these, um, playgrounds, as it were.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: Um, just like you with the painting. Right. This morning, I was I was late for a recording. And you spent the time wisely in working on your painting. You’re like. Like the stakes are low, and this brings me joy. It’s part of my practice. It’s. I can I can be contemplative. I’m still actually doing something while I’m making it. So you use that time to work on your expression. And I think that’s part of the that’s part of the integration of the perfectionist is finding that that sweet spot of I’m expressing myself and I’m giving myself grace. That it doesn’t have to be a certain way.

Laura: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that we explore in our workshop is, um, just like, you know, time of day and how that affects our energy. And, you know, at what times of day do we feel like it’s easier for us to partner with our perfectionists, as opposed to sometimes we might feel like it is more work for us to be a partner. Um, how does that how does that work for you? How does that feel for you as far as aligning with energetic times of day?

Renae: Yeah. So my my most optimistic self is usually in the morning. Um, my worst time of day is three o’clock in the afternoon. It is my it is. It is generally where I hit a wall. And I’ve tried different supplements, different food, hydration patterns, stretches, walks, light, everything. It it has actually been kind of a pattern since two thousand and seven. Um, and I had I had a major surgery, um, for an illness and I’ve had to have kind of like a break, a nap in the day. Ever since then, it’s just part of my whatever. Um, and so unless I really, like, have, you know, like, I have, like, I have to, but then it comes at a cost. So I’ll text my husband usually at around that time and say, I’ve hit the wall. I’m going to recharge now and I’ll take a thirty minute nap. And that’s when I have to do that is not my creative time. That is very much is not my expression time. That is not I don’t have. I have a propensity to to rage quit during that because I have just hit the end of my resources. And so mornings definitely. And then what happens? Um, between like four and six for me is if I get into flow state, I could keep going for the rest, like the whole night, so I will it just, um, because it’s not perfectionism, it’s flow. Right?

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: Like I’m not forcing. I have, I have made peace and so that I it it really does take does take a little discipline for me to say, oh I probably need to like, stop and have dinner with people or

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: um, and sometimes and sometimes I don’t. Sometimes I say, actually, I will feel so good for me to keep going. And it’s, it’s I, I need that. And so I actually have had that the last couple of weeks where um, for both of my businesses, I have mapped out the entire twenty twenty six and not to like, like I haven’t written all my emails or but I’ve, I’ve planned the calendars and I’ve and I’ve planned the themes and what projects are going to happen and, and blocked it off on my calendar and said, okay, this is this is what I’m going to do. And knowing that things still might adjust, but the piece that it gave me because I was taking care of, I was setting those parameters for future me so that I would have more opportunity to go into the flow state, and I would have more opportunity in the morning to to be creative. So I, I, you know, go through my alignment process and I go through my planning process at the beginning of the week, and then I write down, okay, here’s what I told myself I was going to work on on Tuesday. Do I need to pick up anything from Monday? And and I move forward that way. And so it’s it’s

Laura: Right?

Renae: definitely the morning for me. Um.

Laura: Yeah. And so, I mean, just reading between the lines of what you’re saying is that you are and, you know, I want everyone to hear this, is that you have a developed an awareness of when you are working best and can be in partnership with your perfectionist in this case, and you know, a lot of other good stuff. And then you also have an awareness of when you are not as productive at and you are then using those times accordingly, like you’re not trying to do something at three o’clock pm because you’re, quote, supposed to be productive all day long. You’re saying, I understand that this is not a good time, and so I’m going to take a nap right now because that is what is going to allow me to recharge, to then work in my flow state in the next couple hours. And I think that’s a really it’s such an obvious thing, but I think that often we don’t think to do it. We don’t think to become aware of when we are at our most, you know, creative and, and likely to have flow state. And when we are at our points of lowest energy like I after five o’clock, I usually I’m not. That is when I start to feel like I’m a dumb loser that can’t make anything work. Whereas Laura at nine o’clock in the morning is like, I’m going to be the CEO of the world tomorrow. You know, like, I have such a shift in state. And for a long time I was really letting that evening, Laura, get me down. And then I finally, I finally just realized, like, I can just stop trying to do stuff after five. And then I let that go, and I don’t have to feel like that. I don’t have to face that irrational state of whatever that is. I mean, I’m sure there’s some work that could be done there, but also I’m just tired and drained by that point,

Renae: Mhm.

Laura: I think because I have been, you know, thinking a lot during the day. And that’s a good time for me to unplug and do something that isn’t requiring me to have as high of an expectation of what I. It’s hard for me to hold the process at that time of day and not the outcome.

Renae: Yeah. And I think the um the thing I’m hearing in that and also tie that in with what I was talking about with the timing is um, we are so and this is I think especially true post pandemic, post peak pandemic, um, that we got so used to on zoom going from meeting to meeting to meeting. Um, and, you know, I’ll take a five minute bio break, right. Um, and then I’ll go to the next. But we, we don’t actually give ourselves buffers for our brain to start to make meaning out of the data that we’ve just brought in for our,

Laura: That’s.

Renae: our, our biological systems to start to repair. Because when we’re focused on things, it it comes at a cost. We can. And it’s bizarre to me that we have not even talked about that. We don’t talk about that in school. When we talk about brain breaks, we’re like, oh, those special kids need brain breaks. No, we all need brain breaks.

Laura: Right. We’re all special kids.

Renae: Right. Like it to form neural pathways is hard, hard work. We’re like rewiring our brains as we’re contemplating these new ways of being and thinking and processing and. And so we want to recover. It’s not any different than sports. It’s not any different than, um, you know, any type of endurance project. It’s it’s an endurance project for our brain. And so honoring that, we need breaks. And I say this as a person who is terrible. I’m still terrible at taking breaks, and I so I like, have to put this in there. I have to I’m speaking this to myself just as much as anybody else of saying no like you. You need a break. I used to be so much better. I had different, a different set of circumstances in in some different places. And so I would have enough water. Right now I’m. I’m pretty much chronically dehydrated. I’m working on it. But I would drink so much water that every forty five minutes I had to get up and move to go to the bathroom.

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: And and in that it forced me to to take a break. Right. And

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: it wasn’t just biological

Laura: Yeah.

Renae: It. Right. So that that where can we put in those as we’re integrating this and saying there is a, there is a place for you to bring to, to, to, you know, perfectionist. You do a really good job of, um, helping me to hold hope that there might be even something more exciting or better or, or a deeper expression of myself. And,

Laura: Mhm.

Renae: and it doesn’t necessarily have to be this moment.

Laura: Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. Well I um have really enjoyed all of these conversations about perfectionism and working through um our workbook. Um, we would love it if you worked through the workbook. And also there’s three freebies that align if you want to just dip your toe instead of going full in. Um, what else would do you have any closing thoughts on perfectionism? Renae.

Renae: Yeah. Um. I think that. A great question to ask your perfectionist when when you feel it coming up is to say thank you. Are you sure that’s the full truth? And just to do a check, because we’re we’re not saying that there isn’t something to learn from this. The expression of the perfectionist, there’s a there’s a reason for it and hold space to say. Maybe there’s more. Maybe maybe it’s that’s not the full story. And I’m going to hold Grace for myself, and I’m going to hold grace for that part of me that that is, is pushing, that this is the only way and say, let’s just let’s just take a second here and maybe take a second look.

Laura: Yeah, yeah. And you know, I think to further that, I would also say one thing that’s been helpful for me as I’m, you know, working with parts of myself is to, you know, say if you didn’t have to hold on to this job, what would you rather be doing? And sometimes that can be a really interesting way to see how it wants to partner with you instead of just, um, kind of like sometimes I think about it like, okay, like I’m just, like, going to keep you in the passenger seat and ignore you. But really, this journey is about making an ally, making a partner out of that part of you. And so asking it what other job I could do because obviously very good and very influential part of you. Um.

Renae: Right?

Laura: So what? How could it use that power to your advantage in a different way?

Renae: Awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks as always, Laura. I’m so glad that we get to do this together. Thank you so much for all that you’ve brought to this conversation.

Laura: Thank you.